Trotsky:
> Perhaps it would help if you gave some examples of each of these
> societies, to show how it works. I'm willing to be convinced, but I
> haven't been yet...
Before trying to convince you, I must address a question raised by Julian
Lord:
> I disagree with the diagrams representing the relationships of the
> four main philosophical currents of thought in Glorantha. It looks like
> they're turning into an alignment table from an AD&D book by Gary
> Gygax! (My character's alignment is Mystic Theist, and he will
> Fight Animism and Materialism wherever they are found ...)
What you just stated Julian is not a problem with the diagram but with the
players. Anyway the diagram is not supposed to be a D&D-style alignment. It
simply organizes the 'four main philosophical currents of thought in
Glorantha'.
Let's recall it:
MYSTICISM
I
I
THEISM----------------I----------------- MUNDANISM (1)
I
I
SPIRITUALISM (1)
What Julian calls 'philosophical currents of thought' I call belief
systems. This means that they are the pure world views of mundane sentient
intelligent creatures in Glorantha.
IMHO no real creature (be it an human, a troll, a dwarf, etc.) achives the
complete realisation of any of these four pure belief systems, because
creatures are mundane.
Achievement of THEISM would mean that the creature would try to join his
god which implies he would leave the mundane plane;
Achivement of MYSTICISM would mean that the creature would attempt to
become one with the whole, loosing his individuality;
Achievement of SPIRITUALISM would imply leaving the mundane plane for the
spirit plane;
Achievement of MUNDANISM would mean breaking the ties with the other planes
and the death of the creature.
The basic belief systems are like the matemathical point: they exist in
abstract, but cannot materialize.
In fact, intelligent creatures cannot dedicate them wholy to achieve the
pure form of a given belief system and survive the experience, because
intelligent creatures are the interplay of the four belief systems.
In the mundane plane, all that a creature may attempt is to dedicate himself to one of the mixed belief systems:
Pantheism---------Mysticism---------Alquimism (2)
I I
I I
Monotheism Sofism (1)
I I
I I
Polytheism------Shamanism-----------Animism (1)
These are mixed. Any person dedicating himself to one of these cannot achieve the absolute realisation of his belief framework, he can only attempt to get closer and closer to it. The follower of a given belief system, say the polytheist Orlanthi does not deny the existance of other belief systems, or that his belief system shares some aspects of the four pure forms. What he says is that the Orlanthi way is 'the right combination' of the pure systems of thought.
Examples - first the easiest:
- - Polytheism - most pantheons like the Orlanthi. - - Shamanism - shamanical ancestor worship. - - Animism - Hsunchen shamanism. - - Monotheism - the western cult of the Invisible God. - - Alquimism (2) - the Mostali.
Now the more difficult:
- - Mysticism - the dragon way, the path of immanent mastery (?).
- - Pantheism - I'm not sure, but I tend to think that the aldriamy should
worship a form of pantheism.
- - Sofism - this is like Greek sofism. I'm not sure that there is something
like it in Glorantha. Maybe the God Learners.
Answering specifically some comments:
Trotsky:
> I don't think they're as clearly opposed as this indicates. Gloranthan
> monotheists (Hrestoli, Rokari etc.) are generally also materialists, so
> putting them so far apart seems unhelpful. And there are cultures which
> combine theism with materialism (the Henotheists, and at least some
> Lunar sorcerors). Also, I'd have said that the elves may combine
> spiritism/animism and mysticism, and they aren't necessarily the only
> ones.
As I said, none of the 'mixed' belief systems are a pure form of the four
basic ones. What is important is the dominant component of a given belief
system.
As you may have noticed, there is a slot I left free in the second diagram, the center. May this be the place for the illuminated?
(1)
I keep changing the names of the diffenrent belief systems:
I changed 'materialism' for 'mundanism' because I think this reflects
better Gloranthan reality, and avoids the confusion with RW materialistic
philosophies.
I changed 'shamanism' to 'spiritism' and now to 'spiritualism' because the
two former concpets seem too narrow.
The other changes are self explanatory.
(2)
Guy Hoyle
> Umm, what the heck is Alquimism?
Trotsky:
> Also, AFAIK 'alquimism' isn't a word in English, which I appreciate is
> not your first language :-)
David Dunham
> Give Sergio a break -- "alchemy" is probably the word he meant, but it's
> hardly a standard vocabulary word.
Almost there David. In fact I introduced the word 'alchemism', which doesn't exist in Portuguese either, based on 'alchemy'. Alchemy is a practice, alchemism is the belief system that justifies the practice. It's the belief in the alchemical way for solace. Alcemism is the belief that the world is a whole and that by manipulating it's basic components we can achieve the harmony of the whole. Ence its connection with the Mostali.
Sergio
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