I complained:
>>I have seen next to nothing about Orlanthi
>>in the (established) Lunar Provinces, and how they combine worship of
>>Orlanth with worship of the Seven Mothers.
Jeff Richard
>Nick Brooke and I have played around with this a bit.
So have I, but neither the two of you nor myself have put anything on this list, yet...
>Suffice to say that
>the Orlanthi of the Lunar Provinces are about as similar to the Sartarites
>as Charlemagne's Franks were to the Norsemen.
You mean, two generations away from doing the same wagon fertility rites Tacitus described in his Germania (see Rimbert's description of the last Merowing kings)?
>We suspect these Orlanthi
>wear trousers, have nobles with estates, have civic centers, keep written
>records and aspire to the lofty title of Imperial senator or other such
>office.
Sounds a lot like some peoples' Sartar - e.g. my impression of the Aldachuri, or possibly the Wilmskirk tribes in the basin.
>One way of looking at them is by comparing them to the German
>federatae of the Late Roman Empire - imagine Fazzur Wideread as a Stilicho
>and you probably aren't terribly off the mark.
My impression of Tarsh is almost that of Britain under Magnus Maximus - more "Good Old Lunar" than the empire itself. IMG Fazzur is lord over vast estates dedicated to horse-breeding, probably the third best breed in DP after the Grazers and (if you want to call them horses) Ethilrist. (Of course these same estates provide grain for horse and rider, and clothing and equipment - imagine a Wallenstein-like mercenary-entrepeneur in the late Roman Empire.)
Religion:
I'm not sure I'd chuck out Orlanth kingship rites at all - after all _all_ the Christian kings up to Charlemagne's father (and many long afterwards) received their legitimacy from definitely non-Christian heathen gods and rites. The wagon rite and long-haired, bearded dress mentioned by Rimbert are good old Wotan rites continued in the thoroughly Christianized Frankish kingdom. Admittedly without direct invocation of Wotan, but with all the details. The Ynglingatal in Snorre's Heimskringla (written in the 13th century) still traces the Norse royal house back to Frey.
Imagine Lunar praises in bad stave rhymes...
>How's this for a start, Joerg?
Nice. (Especially in the face of the fact that four years ago this relaxed discussion would have earned us the Flames of Ehilm thrice over...)
Let's go on...
Peter Metcalfe chimes in:
>My guess is that Lunar Orlanthi rationalize it by saying that since
>the Red Goddess won at Castle Blue, her existance in glorantha is
>normal.
Well, IMO the Orlanthi protest against "Chaos" is a bit too loud to ring true. Wasn't it Orlanth who took the power Humakt had taken from the Void below Subere's realm and applied it to become ruler of the world? The journey of the Red Goddess isn't that different, really.
How do these people tell the events of Castle Blue (after all, even for them a far-away incident)? Was it a series of contests between the Goddess and Orlanth, similar to Orlanth's Three Challenges to Yelm?
>The recently mentioned Secret of the Second Son (with
>dire warnings about its dramatic insight) may impact on this
While I'm not initiated to the exact content of these secrets, I'm fairly convinced that they contain some "know your enemy" stuff vs chaos, along the fine distinction between Disorder and Chaos.
>I still think a modus vivendi is possible for the Orlanthi
I think so. This is why I think there should be another write-up for Yanafal as the "tribal" professional warrior, different from the Lunar Officer. IMO Fazzur's sidekick Horatio Hostilius falls into this category.
>DW#28 gives population breakdowns of two Lunar Provinces. There
>it is stated that 'Lunars' compose 50% of the population in Aggar
>and 80% of the population in Tarsh. The remants are composed of
>'Orlanthi'. However given the recent material about Peloria makes
>states that most people in Peloria are still worship their
>traditional dieties, I do not think it likely that the most of the
>'Lunars' of Tarsh and Aggar are Seven Mothers cultists who sneer
>at Orlanth.
To me, that means that the "Lunars" are Orlanthi which have included Lunar worship in their clan and tribal traditions (and wyters, etc.).
IMO the Fazzurites during/after Argrath's conquest of Tarsh are thoroughly Lunarized haters of Dara Happan affectations favoured by the Phargantites and Pharandros.
>It is my belief that most of the people included in the group 'Lunar'
>are Orlanthi who have been partially lunarized. They would partake
>in state ceremonies under the aegis of the Provincial Church but still
>pray to Orlanth and Ernalda. Only a staunch few (like Fazzur Wideread,
>Prince Orontes and other Tarshite characters in 'Tarsh War') appear to
>be thoroughly lunarized and even then clan loyalties are very
>influential.
IMO the Sylilans, certainly "thoroughly Lunarized" since they are reckoned as Heartlands, are recognizably Orlanthi. Career officers (Jomes Wulf, Livius Thrax) from Orlanthi origin probably are closer to Stilicho than Fazzur (who doubles as land-owning tribal king or (supra-) clan chief of the Orindori, called "duke"). I'm not even certain whether Fazzur led Orlanth ceremonies during his "home leaves" 1605-1607, 1610-1613, 1621-1625, and on to his death.
"Gods and Goddesses of the Lunar Empire" fails to mention Sylilan deities but gives a number of deities for "Saird" and Jillaro.
Biselenslib, Buserian, Dendara (mentioned for Saird - probably the Dara Happan part of it), Hwarin Dalthippa (3,000, Jillaro), Jajagap(p)a (22,000, Saird, Jillaro), Jakaleel, Idovanus (the Carmanian god of light and good!), Lodril and Oria, Oslira, Shargash, ViTuros, Yelm&Dendara
Of these, I can buy a certain importance of Lodril, Oria and ViTuros in Sylila. Not all of the sultanate started out as Orlanthi lands, and the region probably suffered from Sheng's reign, so that Pelorian settlers could be expected. Most of the Yelmic deities are restricted to the Dara Happan culture around and south of Alkoth, reaching into Jillaro but hardly dominating there IMG. The river deities cater for a distinct part of the population, and only Hwarin addresses the Orlanthi roots of the natives of Saird. IMO Orlanth and Ernalda are serious omissions in that compilation...
>IMO most of the soldiers of the Bagnot Militia would
>worship Orlanth or have been initiated into him.
Sort of RQ-Companion's "worship Barntar" (for Esrolia and Heortland)?
I wonder if there is a common peoples' myth of how the Red Goddess married into the Storm Tribe (probably based on Hwarin's marriage).
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