Sergio: <<Nothing against this concept. What I'm saying is that in Glorantha magic is part of the physical processes and impersonal forces.>>
Certainly, that's what the Malkioni believe.
<< And as in the RW we can look at humans from a POV based purely in physical
processes and impersonal forces; in Glorantha we can do the same in what
concerns spirits and gods. So, this substantiates my argument that shamanism
and polytheism are materialist.>>
I disagree. Spirits and gods are not impersonal, that's the whole point. Alright, so neither is the Invisible God, but he set the world into motion through strictly defined logical laws, which isn't how the Orlanthi gods operate. The Malkioni materialists believe in impersonal laws of nature; the polytheists and animists don't. If you don't like the use of the word 'materialism' here, that's fine and of course you're welcome to call it what you like in your own game, but I fear it is unlikely to change in the official material.
<< The question is not whether action (including magical action) is based on theoretical principles or on empirical experience. What makes it materialist is what is being done, not how what is being done is explained. It doesn't matter if you think before you act, or act before you think (if you can think at all).>>
I absolutely disagree. Materialism as opposed to polytheism and animism, is *precisely* about how what is being done (or observed) is explained IMO. The net result has nothing to do with it - animists, polytheists and materialist/sorcerors all have healing spells which have more or less the same end result, but get there by different means.
<< It would have to be shown that these people [animists, polytheists] don't have a materialistic understanding of their gods and spirits. IMO this is unlikely: gods and spirits are very physical, they produce physical results and are represented in anthropomorphic ways.>>
Again, taking 'materialist' in this context to mean operating through impersonal laws and logic, the people in question absolutely do not have a materialistic understanding of their deities. Likewise, gods and spirits are not physical, but spiritual - since the Compromise, anyway. Again, you can argue as to whether 'materialism' is the right word in this context, but that is how it is used in the existing material as far as I understand it.
<<Me: Orlanthi, however, don't really think of anything in a materialist way at all; they explain it all through the actions of gods and spirits.>>
Sergio: <<Once more you're assuming that gods and spirits are not material in Glorantha, which IMO is wrong.>>
Materialists say that gods and spirits are in some sense material, because that's how they think of things. But the people who worship them make a pretty clear distinction between the mundane and the divine or the physical plane and the spirit world, and while they believe that the mundane/physical plane is strongly influenced by the divine/spiritual plane the way in which in they understand that as operating is fundamentally different from the way the Malkioni do. So, IMO, according to polytheists and animists the gods and spirits are *not* material in Glorantha - whether they are right or not is beside the point.
<< So, my question remains: why calling Malkioni and people that practise sorcery materialists?>>
Because their magic doesn't employ the spiritual world in addition to the material. Your argument as I understand it, is that there isn't really a distinction between the two since the spiritual world *is* material in Glorantha. Now, sorcerors may well believe that (and I'm sure the God Learners did) but I don't think that non-sorcerors do.
<< This seems to be a poor choice of words on the part of the people (gameword
designers) that introduced that word in Glorantha.>>
I don't see anything wrong with the word myself since it makes perfect sense to me, and I have tried to explain what I think it means in this context. If you want a different word to mean the same thing, then, well... I couldn't possibly have a problem with that, could I?
Forward the glorious Red Army!
Trotsky
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