Materialism in glorantha

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:10:09 +1200 (NZST)


Sergio Mascarenhas:

Me>> A Materialist does X and creates effect Y.
>> A Shaman horsetrades with Spirit X and gets effect Y.

>In other words, the Spirit does X and creates effect Y.
>And the shaman may use a spirit spell, which means that:
>A Shaman does X and creates effect Y.

Wrong. The Spirit does not do X because the Spirit *is* X (with the effect Y being an intrinsic part of it). Thus it is impossible to claim the Shaman is a materialist in sheep's clothing because they approach X by completely different methods. A similar argument applies to your comments about the theist.

>In other words, your concept of materialist action applies to
>sorcerors, shamans, and gods.

Materialist action is not the topic. You asked what is a materialist in glorantha and my answer was given in terms of *viewpoints*. That alone is the critical difference.

>> The existance of the Invisible God is provable in Glorantha. Even
>> the Brithini acknowlege his existance. Therefore he is no more
>> metaphysical than the existance of quarks in the RW.

>Provable in which sense? In the sense that people can sense his presence
>and his actions (both physicaly and magically)? It seems not.

His presence and actions can be sensed in a similar manner to the existance of the Big Bang and Quarks can be sensed in the RW. He is invisible to ordinary eyes but with the application of proven techniques such as logic and experimentation, his existance can be verified.

>I would rather say that this proof is of the nature of the proofs of
>the existance of God in our RW.

But you are quite happy to believe the gloranthan theist when he claims that his god exists. So why do you not extend the same courtesy towards the Malkioni who make similar claims and even make the attempt to prove its existance?

>But in the RW believing in God is an act of faith, not of
>proof, precisely because nothing proves the existance of God.

In modern times, belief depends on faith. But in the good old days, most people were of the opinion that there was provable evidence for their belief namely the presence of the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures. They even made independent attempts to prove that their beliefs were true.

>> [The Malkioni are considered materialists] Because their worldview is
>> constructed on the basis of provable concepts.

>The same can be said of spirit magic practitioners, and polytheists. For
>instance, there is plenty of proof on what concerns spirit magic spells,
>spirits, and discorporate entities. The spirit plane is no less 'material'
>then the mundane plane.

But the shamans and the theists do not base their worldview on materialistic concepts. The shaman relies on his experiences on the Other Side whereas the theist relies on Divine Relevation. Thus their axioms cannot be proven or in some cases even be tested and so their worldview is not materialistic.

>> They interpolate from easily proven concepts and then go on to
>> prove the interpolations. By this method, they have proved the
>> existance of the Invisible God and that is how they attempt to
>> reach him.

>This looks a lot like the quest to prove the existance of God in RW
>Christian theology and philosophy: A dead end.

So why are the gloranthan theists able to reach their god? And if you grant that they exist, then why cannot the Invisible God also exist? And if you admit that the Invisible God exists, then why cannot his existance be verified through experimentation?

>Or let me put it in another way: Malkionism
>allows for a more rational and logical dealing with mater and nature, not
>based on occasional aquisitions or the dependance on sprits or gods.

Correct.

>But it allows a person to be more
>ready to understand the limits of the material, and to try to reach an
>higher level of existance without the constrains of mater.

The materialist would phrase this differently.

'...it allows a person to be more ready to understand the limits of this mortal world, and to try and reach a higher level of existance amidst the Pure World/World of Ideals/etc'.

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