Hero Wars system niggles

From: Pete Nash <pete_at_pipistrel.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:06:21 +0100


I too was able to run a game of Hero Wars at Convulsion. I also played a

game which enabled me to see the stick from both ends.

As a whole the system is very slick. Its easy to use, there is only one chart
you have to know and characters can be summed up with a few sentences.

I do have some points I'd like to cast though.

  1. Success of a skill depends on a standard d20 roll. There are four levels of skill success - fumble, failure, success and critical. You need to roll your skill or higher to succeed. As a skill gets better its number drops towards one. When both participants of a challenge roll the same level of success then its the highest number on the dice which wins. This gives some strange results where when a poorly skilled character succeeds in any skill, he _always_ does it very well. This is counter intuitive to me. I think a poorly skilled person should succeed poorly if they succeed at all. Robin said that this was to make it easier for new people to understand the system (the higher the roll the better) but I'd prefer to see the lower roll win a contest.
  2. The system is very loose. It will require firm game mastering to prevent it from being abused by the players. Especially with Robin's idea of keeping a few 'unspecified' skills hanging around which can be assigned as and when a need for them is required, and then at the end of the adventure they are freed up again. E.g. Your armoured PC is drowning and you have an unused skill

at 8/12 available. So you come up with a flange explanation that you learned
how to swim in armour from a naiad and assign the unused skill to expert

swimming at 8/12 to save yourself. The next adventure the skill returns to being
unassigned. I don't really like this idea. Also there are no real examples of what
a value represents in the world. What is a normal strength? How many action
points are required to teleport a mouse? or a human? What's to stop a forgetful
GM from changing the value from week to week?

3) In the example adventure there was a situation where the party of PC's
stage a huge argument with the 6 members of a chieftains clan ring. Each NPC
was using a different 'point-of-view' argument skill. This strained me to the limit.
I would say that my GMing skill is fairly good, and that my roleplaying is not too
bad either (getting a bit long in the tooth!) but I was struggling for ideas and
story lines for these arguments by the end of the contest(s). I love the idea of
bidding action points, roleplaying the exchange and the rolling the resolution d20.
But if you have a lot of rounds of bidding it makes it very difficult to keep on
roleplaying it. All of my players as soon as they became comfortable with the
bidding system switched to doing all_or_nothing bids, because they couldn't
think up any more fresh ideas for each round. Even in combat this would become a problem if two characters had reserves of hundreds of action points
(which can happen very quickly). If they were equally matched the
contest could
last for ages whilst they bid in small enough chunks to prevent instant death if they
failed a roll. And remember that every round should be accompanied with some
roleplay or description or else it just becomes a dice rolling contest.

4) Which leads me onto young players. I was the person who expressed some
reservations about more immature roleplayers, unfortunately I didn't phrase my
question very well. What I meant to point out was if both my play testers and
I whom are all very experienced and good at roleplaying had difficulties

maintaining descriptions from round to round, then how will 14 year olds be
able to cope. Without the roleplay the bidding system becomes very sterile and
boring indeed. I am of the opinion that children have very fertile imaginations but
they definitely need some help in bringing that imagination out. Rules help
children play. Lack of rules (or loose rules) leave them feeling a bit lost and
maybe not happy that they are doing it, or can do it right. Children don't tend
to play story telling systems (unless the game is run by somebody mature), they
like hard and fast games like warhammer or D&D, which have boundaries.

5) Although the contest resolution works fine for verbal or non-dangerous
conflicts I think it fails when it comes to combat. Using this system to resolve a
combat between two opponents only the person who loses all of their action
points first would be wounded or killed. I agree with Michael Cule that this is too
much of an abstraction and I prefer to see the other participant suffer some injury
(or its equivalent) during the fight too.

6) There was an example table showing what happens to the loser of a fight
depending upon how negative their action point go. Zero was winded, -10 a
light wound, -20 heavy wound, -30 dying and -40 dead. Now even for characters with good skills, the best action point totals were 14. In a fight with
an equally skilled person and consistently rolling successes the best you could
expect to put your opponent down to was -14ish and to do that you'd need to
make a large bet which could easily backfire on the player. So it was impossible
to give the opponent a bad wound or kill them without placing yourself in danger.
Again this is counter intuitive to me. If Robin is trying to model TV/book fiction
how could the system handle a disgruntled (inexperienced) wife who simply
plunges her fish knife into her husbands belly and kills him in one shot?

7) Plot points can easily be abused, especially in mass conflicts. If a player
waits several rounds in a conflict till one of the enemy builds up a large store of
won action points, they can make a stupidly large bet (Player characters can
bet more points than they actually have remaining) against the enemy and use
a plot point to almost guaranty winning the roll. Then the player has all the
action points which the enemy had, and will probably be unassailably powerful
for the rest of the conflict. This becomes horribly abusive if in a battle situation
where the PC can bet all or nothing bids to kill each NPC without worrying
about loosing. Very quickly one character can defeat an entire regiment...

8) In a similar vein, major NPC's shouldn't bother throwing chaff
(weaker

warriors, debaters etc.) at the players to soften them up, because in fact all that
they are doing is bumping up the players action points and making them stronger, rather than weaker.

9) Because every conflict uses the same system resolution I think that there will
be very little difference in the 'feel' of the magic systems. Although sorcery will
require enchanting objects, shamanism to summon spirits etc., there is _no_
difference between them. Its just the same game system with different words
of description. Ok, once again this comes down to a question of roleplaying,
but it doesn't seem right to me. Will there be benefits for one type of magic
over another (e.g. Shamanism is better against sorcery, and sorcery is better
against theism etc.). I would like to see something to spice up the magic
types and make them more individualistic.

Right I think that got all my points off my chest. Sorry to take up digest
space, but I'd like to see other play testers opinions on my queries.

Pete


End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #77


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