At 09:26 20/08/98 GMT, you wrote:
>
>The Glorantha Digest Thursday, August 20 1998 Volume 06 : Number 132
>
>
>
>TABLE OF CONTENTS
>
> Peter Metcalfe Glroranthan Orrery
> Peter Metcalfe Babwatch
> Peter Metcalfe The BatDebate
> Kevin Rose Re: Lesbians and Babeestor Gor
> Peter Metcalfe Macbeth
> Peter Metcalfe Carmanian parallels.
> Peter Metcalfe Western Scripts
> Nick Brooke Re: The Stars
> Nils Weinander Re: Malkioni theory
> DAVISON NICHLOAS A Shadow Squids
> Peter Metcalfe Fronelan obscurae
> Peter Metcalfe Ygg.
>
>RULES OF THE ROAD
>
>1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially
> not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated.
> If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show"
> please do. But don't include the whole message you praise.
>2. Use an appropriate Subject line.
>3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a
> point-by-point basis.
>4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready
> to stand by it.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:08:41 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Glroranthan Orrery
>
>Keith Nellist:
>
>>Has anybody done anything like programmed the movements of the Gloranthan
>>stars and planets in a computer so that they can be watched as the move
>>around the Sky Dome?
>
>See Nick Brooke's homepage at:
>
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Nick_Brooke/
>
>>If so, does it all work?
>
>See for yourself.
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:25:41 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Babwatch
>
>Ashley Munday:
>
>>1. What do Babeestor Gor worshippers hate: Men or Men because
>>they're representations of patriarchy?
>
>What makes you think they are Manhaters? To me, they seem to
>be general maladjusts. GoG (Wisdom of the Woodwife) says that
>they incapable of being happy and so Babs gives them an outlet
>for their fury. The average Bab cultist is more likely to be
>alcoholic.
>
>>2. Either way, Babs will attract homosexual women. As Babs is
>>generally a single sex environment it provides a place where there isn't
>>a patriarchy because there aren't many men.
>
>Babs is a major Goddess in Esrolia which is a matriarchy. So
>why would lesbians be attracted to the cult of Babs specifically?
>Furthermore Babs rarely has a temple of her own and is generally
>stuck as a Temple Guradian to the other Earth Goddesses who deal
>with men. So Bab's role is no more single sex IMO than the worship
>of Ernalda among the Orlanthi for example.
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:21:12 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: The BatDebate
>
>Keith Nellist:
>
>me>> Assuming a 5% replacement rate (ie 5% of the population die and are
>>> replaced by newborns) and that any growth in population is eaten by
>>> the bat, that means that over 54 years the Bat feeds from an effective
>>> population that is 2.7 times larger than the number of people living at
>>> any one time. Which reduces the proportion of people eaten to only 3.7%
>>> which is well beneath the proportion of lowlifes in Lunar Society.
>
>>OK, I still think that 3.7% is very high, even if no one else does. I
>>disagree with Joerg's figure of 40 per week. That would be too easy.
>>What Peter is saying is that every singe lowlife in Lunar Society is
>>caught and fed to the Bat.
>
>Wrong. I said before the Bat consumed equally between the Lowlives and
>the Hostiles across the Border. And lowlifes in the Heartlands are not
>fed to the Bat because the Bat never visits to the Heartlands.
>
>>On the recyclng of souls. I agree it isn't stated anywhere that souls are not
>>created. But it dos not explain all the Hunter/Eirtitha Peaceful cut business.
>
>Treat it like a burial service to ensure that it does not come
>back as a bad ghost and not a need to keep the supply of souls
>flowing. Furthermore according to some mythologies, the souls
>in the land of the dead eventually dissolve.
>
>>Also, say there were 2 million cow souls in Eiritha's womb (or whereever) for
>>every currently living cow this gives plenty of room for pop. growth without
>>needed to created new ones.
>
>But _why_ assume the need for such a limit at _all_? It does not
>make sense and is contradicted by the continuing prosperity of
>Peloria despite your BatHangups.
>
>>The Bats destruction of them ( or any other chaotic destructuion) would be
>>destroying them forever, eventually returning the world to nothing, no cow
>>souls, no living cows.
>
>And since in the Lunar Empire, this has not happen despite seven wanes
>of the Bat (which is more than enough to eat your 2 million cow souls),
>we can safely assume that your proposition is falsified.
>
>>"I'd like to join the cult of the Bat and therby be last on the menu"
>
>Oi! Get in line!!
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:44:00 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Kevin Rose <vladt_at_interaccess.com>
>Subject: Re: Lesbians and Babeestor Gor
>
>Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday_at_liffe.com> wrote
>
>>Any single sex social environment will tend to attract more than the
>>average population of homosexual people. This may apply to the Vingans
>>and Yelornans as well, other marginalised female groups, outside
>>mainstream society.
>
>Well, yes. They will also attact those who have been rejected by society,
>which in many cultures included rape victims. So they tend to aquire a
>fair number of people who seek out these cults to be able to legitimatly
>avenge themselves, most probably against a stand-in for the original
>victimizer.
>
>The one time I really developed the Yelornans I had them as being pretty
>tolerant of whatever sexual practices one had. As long as you didn't go
>and give the cult a bad name they didn't care. Annoying other cult members
>was very bad, but they were hardly puritanical. No matter what they were
>going to be looked at askance, so they just dealt with it. So mine
>differed a bit from the original version.
>
>Here is the appropriate part from my notes:
>
> "The unicorn riding Star Lady best personifies Yelorna, so
>ideally, all Yelorna initiates should be totally chaste unicorn riders.
>This is impossible for a number of reasons, among them: lack of unicorns
>(as the reward for chastity is the unicorn), the fact that women
>sufficiently aggressive to want to join a warrior cult (and essentially
>reject normal society) often have a stronger sexual drive than most women,
>and the limited life expectancy of a cult that totally forbids sex.
>Therefore the cult has compromised by simply requiring that the initiates
>behave with decorum and restraint. Junior initiates cannot marry, and it
>is considered very bad to become pregnant out of marriage, but non-public
>relationships are condoned. Public displays of affection are considered
>to be in poor taste at best.
> "The cult does not require the concealing dress of most other
>solar cults. Members are required to avoid public nudity and aggressive
>displays of flesh, but the cult does not require that the fact that most
>of the members are attractive women in very good shape be hidden or
>concealed. And most do not, wearing clothes loose enough to permit them
>to fight, but not particularly concealing."
>
>
>This tended to irritate the other solar type a bit. But she didn't really
>care. Her power base was the temple and Zebra fort, as her followers
>were the most reliable troops that Zebra fort had.
>
>The women unicorn riders were under completly different rules, but that
>was because the unicorns are horribly jealous, not because the cult really
>cared. But a rider cannot cheat on her unicorn without him knowing and
>the rider gets a lot more dependent on the unicorn than the other way
>around. So she cannot have a sexual relationship with anyone, regardless
>of gender.
>
>Kevin
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:23:33 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Macbeth
>
>Jamie:
>
>>Wondering why MacBeth figures so often on this Digest
>
>Because he is an ideal archetype for a Bad Orlanthi King.
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:22:01 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Carmanian parallels.
>
>Keith Nellist:
>
>>I think of the Carmanians as Ottoman empire types, simply because of their
>>brutal military history, their conquoring of Greek types (the Pelandans) and
>>also because I think that they wear huge big turbans. I don't know if this
>>makes Takenegi a Young Turk or not.
>
>The Carmanians in the time of Sheng Seleris were producing red-black
>pottery and can be expected to have other greek parallels. The best
>analogy for them is Asiatic Greek fusion states of Seleucus, Bactria
>and Halicarnassus IMO. Interestingly this also gibes with the Russian
>parallel as they are also heavily influenced by the Byzantines.
>Takenegi was not a Young Turk as such as he was not associated with the
>Carmanians to the extent that Magnificus was.
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:10:12 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Western Scripts
>
>Michael Cule:
>
>>I'm not saying that 'common tongues' and 'lingua francas' don't exist. I am
>>say that the source indicates that this is not what is happening here.
>
>Oh? And which sources are these?
>
>>What it says is that the Westerners have spoken languages that are different
>>though related and just ONE system of writing. And to me that means the
>>written language MUST be an ideographic one whose systems don't relate in
>>the slightest to the spoken system.
>
>And we have pointed out the examples of Church Latin and Classical
>Arabic that fit the criteria imposed by the sources. Do you have
>any problem with these examples?
>
>In the case of Latin, the vulgate forms (ie the forerunners of modern
>italian, french and spanish) were not written down for several centuries.
>The first person to write anything down in Italian was Dante circa 1320
>AD. French is written down in England soon after the Norman conquest
>to replace native saxon records. Yet these languages were growing apart
>from each ever other since the Western Roman Empire collapsed. Despite
>this people were using written latin to communicate with each other. I've
>already pointed out that spoken latin was little good for communicating
>with foreigners and gave the example of Katherine of Aragorn.
>
>>An alphabetic system must relate to the spoken system or it won't work.
>
>And what makes you think that it _doesn't_ in the case of Western?
>The Western Languages are descended from one very ancient tongue
>that is highly respected and people still write in it. Despite
>this, most westerners speak a vulgar form of this language which is
>incomprehensible to outsiders. This is a good description of the
>languages of Italian, French and Spanish around the turn of the
>millenium. It is also a good description of Loskalmi, Seshnegi,
>Carmanian etc in glorantha.
>
>
>AF>> Just like English you mean, whose spelling has of course mutated
>>> to _exactly_ match pronunciation?
>
>>Compare English, Dutch and German for a more comparable spread of change in
>>languages. Languages tend to get partially frozen when 'the rules' get laid
>>down and spelling standardised (Dr Johnson has a lot to answer for) but have
>>a look at what common prejudice and ignorance are doing to the spelling of
>>'lite', 'nite' and 'thru'.
>
>FYI this happened as a result of the Printing Press. There are no
>printing presses in glorantha.
>
>
>>> I think there probably is a common(ish) spoken form, it's just what
>>> you hear on the streets. A sort of "Church Western", as it were.
>
>>This is directly contrary to the sources.
>
>Could you then give a source citation? The Church Western would be
>similar to if not the same as spoken Brithini which is mentioned in
>the sources.
>
>
>>Now, that (not being a scholar of that part of the world) I didn't appreciate.
>>All right try written Chinese as a communication between the very different
>>dialects of spoken Chinese. Oh, no someone argues with me against that analogy
>>a little further on.....
>
>Which gives the lie to the argument that only an ideogrammic system
>can represent the Western Script, does it not? A RW alphabetic
>system can represent Western script and a RW ideogrammic system
>does not have the virtues of comprehensibility that is commonly
>supposed.
>
>>Why don't people like this? I don't understand why you want to alter the plain
>>sense of the source to change something that will not make all that much
>>difference. Just to preserve the analogy with Western Europe?
>
>Given that the source mentions nothing whatsoever about an
>ideogrammic system and given that the parallel of arabic has been
>brought up, I find accusations that I am trying to 'change'
>something to preserve the western european analogy to be utterly
>bizarre.
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:39:50 +0100
>From: "Nick Brooke" <Nick_Brooke_at_compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: The Stars
>
>_____
>Keith asks:
>
>> Has anybody done anything like programmed the movements of the Gloranthan
>> stars and planets in a computer so that they can be watched as the move
>> around the Sky Dome? If so, does it all work?
>
>I've done something like that. You can download my "Gloranthan Ephemeris"
>from my homepage, URL below. (Sorry, Windows PCs only!). Read the
>documentation before you ask any questions. And decide for yourself if it
>works. I'll stress that this is *not* accurate, approved, or official -- if
>you want to wait for the Issaries, Inc. version, feel free!
>
>Nick
>:::: web: <http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Nick_Brooke>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:39:23 +0200
>From: Nils Weinander <nilsw_at_ibm.net>
>Subject: Re: Malkioni theory
>
>Peter:
>>
>> I haven't heard the Malkioni devolution scheme (or maybe I have but I
>> haven't heard the scheme as it was described at the Convulsion).
>
>Prime mover -> Creator -> Malkion the god -> Malkion the man
>(who eventually died) or so. This the visible part. The
>theory is a bit muddled in my head right now. Zzabur thought
>the last transition was a Bad Thing and refused to join.
>
>>The Malkioni do know of States of Existance outside the
>>Cosmos but equate it with the number zero and thus 'prove' to their
>>satisfaction that it cannot be reached by mortals
>
>I asked at the Convulsion lore auction if there are
>transcendental ideas in all world views, to which Greg
>answered that yes, the goal in _all_ for worldviews is
>to bring man and the transcendent together. It didn't
>occur to me to ask the follow-up question "What about the
>materialists then?" though, so I can't say what form it
>takes.
>
>> Perhaps we should make a little schematic. The Malkioni view the
>> world in terms of emanations from the Godhead at which the very
>> lowest is the Mortal World, the second lowest is the spirit world.
>> The highest materially observable emanation is the One Mind of
>> the God Learners, the Good God of Estrekor and so forth. Above them
>> is the Hidden Mover who is unknowable. Somewhere in between lies
>> the Solace that Malkion discovered and above it lies Joy of the Heart
>> that Hrestol discovered.
>
>Slight Digest rules break here: this is brilliant! Finally
>a clear exposition of Malkioni metaphysics.
>
>> Hence I think that the status of Saintliness is arrived at by
>> purifying the mind and body so as to attain a higher level of
>> existance.
>
>Not that I want to resurrect the old saint debate at the
>moment, but on a related note, I think that there is
>much to say for the above view, but there is one part
>missing. To be a saint you need some kind of self
>sacrifice, a willingness to reach out to others, not
>just tranfer your own consciuosness to a higher level.
>
>______________________________________________________
>Nils Weinander | Everything is dust in the wind
>nilsw_at_ibm.net | http://www.geocities.com/Paris/8689/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:48:49 GMT
>From: DAVISON NICHLOAS A <N.A.P.Davison_at_greenwich.ac.uk>
>Subject: Shadow Squids
>
>Has anyone got any ideas on what a Shadow Squid is?
>
>Ludoch can muster a force quickly to protect against attacks from
>'sharks and Shadow Squids'
>(Missing Lands - page 10)
>
>Possible suggestions
>
>a) A normal squid.(which uses an ink cloud in combat)
>
>b) A squid which but is in some way connected to darkness etc
>
>Nick
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:31:30 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Fronelan obscurae
>
>Joerg Baumgartner:
>
>>As a pet theory, could "Janubian" be _distantly_ related to Veldang
>>(invasion of Blue People) and more closely to the Sweet Sea languages
>>not mentioned in Genertela Book?
>
>The Blue People of the Sweet Sea are not Veldang. The Veldang
>are associated with fluidity and growth rather than water.
>Furthermore being of the same colour does not necessarily mean
>their languages are of the same family (cf Kralori, Teshnans,
>Pentans and Praxians or Doraddi, Fonritan, Masloi and Teleosans
>or Malkioni, Orlanthi, Pelorians, Pentans and Praxians etc).
>
>And there is the possibility that the Blue Men may be related
>to the Waertagi (and moved upriver from Sog City) and so they
>would speak a Western Tongue.
>
>Me>>>The other Orlanthi come from the south over the High
>>>>Llama's Pass into Jonatela and Oranor.
>
>>When?
>
>Late Second Age, I suppose. They weren't present in Syanthir's
>Anabasis (c. 720 ST) nor are they apparent in Jonat's Saga
>(c. 1020 ST). The earliest possible hint would have been the
>migration of the Uroxi (c. 1100 ST) who could have been on the
>move after having their arses kicked.
>
>>There seems to have been a migration of herder peoples in Peloria along
>>the Rockwood Mountains. The Pelandan records show several such people
>>coming in generally from the south (which they never had an overview
>>of). There also seem to have been local beast totem peoples accepting
>>the Theyalan missionaries and switching to divine worship.
>
>Firstly the only migrations are of the bull people. The earliest
>are the Tawari who are known to have come from what is now
>the Loskalmi province of Tavars. The next migration is of the
>Uroxi and they enter Vangstal from Charg and not the South
>(which would be through Brolia) indicating a fronelan origin.
>
>Secondly at this late stage, the Orlanthi would not be interested
>in sending missionaries. They would be more keen on grabbing land.
>So instead of Orlanthi missonaries converting the heathen to
>heathenisim, one has surly tribesmen muscling in on the best
>farming and mixing in with the more passive inhabitants and forcing
>the more agressive heathens to leave. They might have even been
>encouraged to do so by local Malkioni Lords.
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:59:50 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Ygg.
>
>Trotsky:
>
>> According to KoS (p54, 63) Ygg is a member of the Orlanthi pantheon.
>
>Which was written in the years _after_ the Yggites arrived at Three Steps
>Isle and had contact with the Orlanthi. Prior to that, most Orlanthi
>would have said 'Who is Ygg?' IMO.
>
>Michael Cule
>
>>About the Yggites I don't have any prejudices but I don't want to invent a
>>whole new pantheon for people who may not even impinge on the campaign much.
>
>All one needs to do is take the Viking supplement and use Ygg instead
>of Odin and that'll be good for most purposes.
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #132
>***********************************
>
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #137