Re: The Glorantha Digest V6 #175

From: Chris Bell <argrath_at_ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 21:21:04 -0500


> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:21:16 -0700
> From: "Pam Carlson" <carlsonp_at_wolfenet.com>
> Subject: more chaos in Peloria
>
> Keith says -
>
> > I am uncomfortable with the idea that Orlanthi amd Praxian anti-chaos
> > attitude somehow causes chaos effects or summons it.
>
> Ah! Then my efforts were successful!
>
> >It sounds like Lunar propaganda for a start.
>
> It most certainly could be.
>
> >Orlanthi live in more wild areas than Pelorians and
> > therefore encounter chaos monster that are able to survive on the fringes
> of
> > civilisation.
>
> This is the common and quite plausible explanation. But, one might ask,
> why is there more chaos running about outside Peloria? Why doesn't chaos
> bother Peloria? (well, it does sometimes, but it is recorded with only as
> much loathing as is heaped on invading barbarians...) Perhaps the Orlanthi
> have no other really despicable enemies to complain about, so the choas
> stands out more?
>

IMO, there *is* Chaos in Peloria. It just doesn't have visible manifestations as insouthern Genertela.

By summoning their foes to them, and by defeating them ritualistically, Orlanthi and
related cultures (Praxians, Esrolians, et al) symbolically defeat Chaos and what is
"Unlife" and "Unbeing", the hungry void which seeks to consume all (ie - Kajabor.)
However, for Pelorians may feel that it manifests as opposition to the divine social
order, as expressed in GRAY (Ivory Pages edition, which I bought at Gencon!) However, the Pelorians seem to be unable to externalise this internal evil. It seems
the Pelorian method is to internalise Chaos and comes to terms with it, recognizing that
the Other is the Self. This seems to be the ultimate case in Lunar style Illumination.
On the other hand, Orlanthi cultures express not internalization and acceptance, but
but change and growth instead .During the Lightbringers Quest, Orlanth grew, changed,
recognised his faults, and apologised to Yelm! Orlanth admitted his own error, and took
reposnibility for his own actions. Presumably, Yelm admitted the Rebel God's own justice,
and by default his own injustice.

A good idea of Solar Pelorian Chaos (event though it isn't called that) can be found on
pg 16, Ivory Pages. It seems that Pelorians equate Death with "Notbeing", which is also can be used as a description of Chaos in it's Kajabor form (using Kajabor as a
metaphor here.) Death to the Pelorians is "an absence, not a presence." The ideals of
Severance that is seen in Humakti teachings is eloquently expressed, if not well developed,
in the passages from GRAY. Being perhaps closer with the ideals of severance, Theyalans
understand it better than Solar cultures do (except, perhaps, amongst Pentans and the Alkothi.)

The Yelmic misunderstanding of Chaos is perhaps due to the Dara Happan cultural isolation
that took place during the Greater Darkness. While it seems that most other cultures have
understandind of what Chaos is and what it does, as they were directly affected by it, the Chaos
which afflicted the Dara Happans did not externally manifest, as it did for the Theyalans.
Instead, it was the part of Yelm that was nothingness, Kazkurtum. Another term for Chaos
is perhaps DeadJustice (GRAY, P 37). By becoming the Other, Yelm restored the Cosmos
via his Illumination. By initiating the Lightbringers Quest and restoring Yelm to the World,
Orlanth proved his right of Kingship...he stopped being the Other, and became the One. Did
Yelm's purity inspire Orlanth to change and truly grow, and become a hero? Perhaps
the Lord of Storms and the Sun God are were necessary for each other other to overcome
their own evils. "If Fought, We Won," indeed!

> Simon sees the light with:
>
> > The fact that Ragnaglar is Orlanth's brother must be significant.
>

See above.

> and
>
> >I think that chaos tends to attack a society in the most insidious way
> >it can. In Orlanthis culture chaos attacks the main pillars of orlanthi
> >society. Thed and Ragnaglar attack reproduction and social conventions.
> >Malia counters Chalana Arroy, Thanatar opposes Lankor Mhy, etc.
> > Orlanthi are passionate, violent people and so they have appropriate
> >foes.

In Yelmic Society, Rebellious Terminus opposes Yelm. Curiously, Yelm defeats his foes not by physical force, but by internal purity and justice.

> >Dara Happans are organised and hierarchical so chaos to them is he
> >breakdown of their society, the inversion of their social conventions.
>
> Are you sure you don't know much about DH society? You seem to have hit it
> on the head! Failing to follow the hierarchy and ancient social
> conventions is THEIR special definition of chaos.
>

*bingo!*

> Kind of makes you realize how the Seven Mothers and Red Goddess, to oust
> the Dara Happan/Yelmic rule almost HAD to embrace chaos...
>

Not only that, Lunar Teaching is an incredible fusion of Theyalan and Pelorianideals. The Lunars closeness with Chaos was perhaps their downfall, not for
outward manifestation, but inward corrpution.

> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:51:43 -0700
> From: "Pam Carlson" <carlsonp_at_wolfenet.com>
> Subject: Vingan Heresies
>
> To clear up Jane's confusion, I shall attempt to translate the ramblings of
> Jeff:
>
> "Orlanth the Warrior aspect" - the traditions and magics of the Warriors
> of Orlanth. (Much like "Adventurer aspect" in the old write ups.) Yes,
> Jeff hates the "Adventurer" name, probably because we never heard of "Zeus
> the Adventurer", or "Jupiter the Multi-Talented Lay-About", or "Odin the
> Wandering Heroic Type". So OW = the Old OA.
>

Well, Glorantha aint Earth. Adventurous is fine by me.

> O. Warrior's skills are the traditional "hitting people on the head" ones.
> Magic covers three areas:
>
> movement (great leaps, flying, that mythic leaping across mountain tops
> bit, etc.)
> personal fighting (sword or other weapon enhancing magics, vigor,
> protection, that sort of thing)
> wierd stolen magics (darkwalk, summoning mists, possibly ice stuff, etc).
>
> Notably absent are thunder magics, sylphs, wards, and all those wiggy
> powers.

> Women can't be Storm Voices because they have no path to follow there.
> Vinga is their path to the Orlanth the Warrior analog. One can initiate to
> Ernalda, follow Vinga's path to Orlanth's side, and voila, one get's
> Orlanth-like fighting skills and magics. UNfortuately, we don't know of a
> storm loving daughter of Orlanth.
>

See my comments a few digests back, as well as examples of OrlanthWomen-priests. Orlanth in his storm aspect seems more primal and asexual, and thus accessible to anyone who pursues the mysteries (the inheritance from Umath.) Orlanth Adventurous, however, seems far more a social god. The reason there is no clear cut path for women to the way of Orlanth Thunderous is because *none is needed*. Chalana Arroy nor Issaries cares about the sex of their worshippers. Orlanth, in his Thunderous aspects, doesn't seem to either.

While we're on the topic of gender and element in Glorantha, Greg made interesting comments about the male and female aspects of air to me, as I leafed through GRAY at the Chaosium booth. Entekos is the "right air" of Pelorian Myth, who is later known as Entekos, mother of moons, goddess of the gentle winds. Taking a God Learner tack, this strongly impiles that Rufelza way have been one of Umath's Tribe. Her place is between Sky and Earth, in the realm of Entekos. Greg mentioned to me that there is an old myth about the war between Men and Women, and that the Entekosiad is a Green Age document. Orlanth and the Red Goddess, Brother and Sister?

Things that make you go hhmmmm...

> I do like the suggestion on the kolating/shamanistic approach to storm
> magic. I think a woman would be just as effective as a man at learning the
> ways of spirits and elements, and placating, controlling, or manipulating
> them. I love the Storm-witch idea!

So do I, that's why I thought of it! :) I know there are female aspects to Storm, just as I'm sure there are opposite gender aspects to all the Gods - -..Dayzatar=Ourania, Genert=Ernalda, Yelm=Dendara, Chalana Arroy =Arroin,Orlanth=Vinga? or Orlanth=Rufelza? More understandably, Rufelza=Moonson. Aldyra=Flamal, or Aldrya=Mostal.

Simon Hibbs sez:

> > We have several documented instances of female Orlanthi being able
> > to control the wind: I can't look it up at present, but seem to
> > remember a lady on an expedition to Skyfall Lake being surprised at
> > the fury of the storm and her inability to control it. It seems to
> > me that it is possible, Somehow, for women to gain more access to
> > Storm than Vinga/OA can give.
>
> There is also a Thunderous Comb which (from memory) can only be used
> by female Priests of Orlanth Thunderous and either strengthens a
> storm or summons up a humdinger. Therefore, females can join Orlanth
> Thunderous. Maybe this only applies to Wind Children, but I doubt it.
>

If memory serves correctly, Wind Lords can only access Lightningpowers in the RQ3 Orlanth writeup via the 4 magic weapons subcults, while Storm Voices can access Thunderbolt reusably. Of course, I'd allow Storm Voices to quest to gain the 4 Magic Weapons, but then I also allow Rune Priest-Lords.

Chris Bell
argrath_at_ix.netcom.com--
Seek not in the darkness - for fear of corruption Seek not in daylight - for fear of discovery Ascension walks the Middle Path of Shade


End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #177


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