That's a little balky. Wind Lord And Storm Voice seem to be a good split.
> I personally think the RQ3 version makes a lot more sense, and I'm sure
> its much closer to the way Greg views things, although I could be wrong...
> At any rate, the basic point holds - it evidently is possible for a woman
> to join Orlanth Thunderous if she wants.
>
Agreed! I handle Vinga as a seperate sub-cult of Orlanth for female Wind Lords,called the Red Women, who have somewhat different speed and mobility related powers in addition to the basic Wind and Mastakos powers available to Wind Lords, in exchange for access to the 4 magic weapons, normally only available to Wind Lords.
Also note that women who become Wind Lords *do not* have to follow Vinga's Path, although most do. Access to the 4 Magic Weapons can be attained, instead of Vinga's Cult, if a female Wind Lord chooses to concentrate on that aspect of the Lord of Winds. Unlike in Peloria or other cultures, I see gender lines as less distinct for Orlanthi. Initiating into a woman (or man's) cult isn't forbidden, just somewhat weird, and not ostracised. Of course, most women will be encouraged to be Ernaldi or some other fertility related cult, especially in the hills away from the cities, in places like Sartar, but a women wishing to take a hard hat and take up a spear won't be looked down upon, unless for political reasons (marraige alliances, and the like.) And some girls just "get the wind in them", and have to wander. On the flip side, some men are so full of the cold calculating nature of the earth that they must go further than Barntar's secrets and dive into the bosom of Ernalda. Agaian, kind of strange, but not seen as bad, per se.
> <snip myself, again.>
> The counter-argument would be that a man cannot become a priest of
> Ernalda - although they can be an acolyte. However, given that the RQ3 rules
> do mention restrictions against male Ernaldan priests and not any against
> female Orlanth ones it would seem that this counter-argument does not hold.
> And, of course, we do know that women can become 'priestesses' of Orlanth Rex,
> i.e. tribal Queens.
>
Point well taken. It seems that each god and cult have different standards. Acolyte status and associate worship seems reasonable for Ernalda. Also, while one must be a woman to be a Priestess of Ernalda, *anyone* can be a priest of the local Grain Goddess!
> << The CoP cult write-up mentions non-humans as being permitted to join.>>
>
> More of a concession to the early style of gaming than anything else, I
> suspect. Non-humans probably can join, but I suspect its rather difficult, and
> there'd have to be a good reason to be adopted into an Orlanthi clan, town or
> whatever. I don't think OA exists in complete isolation from society, purely
> as a god of wandering adventurer bands, although I'll certainly concede that
> that's what's implies in RQ2.
>
Ducks are noted worshippers of Orlanth and his ilk. And I'm sure that while incredibly uncommon, the Lord of Storms will take into his fold Aldryami, Uz and all free beings.
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:56:24 +0100 (BST)
> From: Alex Ferguson <abf_at_cs.ucc.ie>
> Subject: Vinga, Thunder, stuff.
>
> Jane Williams:
> > And I hope I don't get Jeff and Alex mixed,
>
> The very notion makes my eyes water a little...
>
> > Well according to RoC, Orlanth Adventurous is what we're talking about [...]
> > Inventing a new term for the same thing is only going to lead to confusion.
>
> I gave up this unequal struggle after "East Ralios" and "Orlanthing". ;-)
>
> > OA as written up has Thunder Powers (or rather, looking at the spell
> > names, Wind Powers).
>
> I think that's a crucial distinction, though. "Wind Lords" have
> wind powers (surprise!), but only Storm Voices have Thunder powers.
Not fully, but Wind Lords have to work to get them. Check out the Lightning Spearsubcult of the 4 Magic Weapons. and in RQ3, Wind Lords can sacrifice for the Storm Voice magic resubaly, and vice versa.
> Julian Lord is quite garrulous on this topic, though I gather he's in
> Paris at the moment, which I understand imples non-Digest-reading.
>
> I won't try to impersonate him, but his usual drift is along the lines
> of Rain and Thunder as male principles, Impregnating Mother Earth's
> fields, yadda-yadda. I believe the Hercules cult (though, which
> one?) is his favoured comparison. You don't have to believe that
> this is Universally Mythicly True to give some credence to it as an
> possible Orlanthi social convention, at least.
>
That's an MGF/personal taste issue. I feel that there's something quitepassionate and feminine to some aspects of Storm. Brastalos, nominally a member of the Storm Pantheon, Magasta's wife, is female and also a Sea Goddess.
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:19:44 +0100
> From: "Jane Williams" <jane_at_williams.nildram.co.uk>
> Subject: Thunderous women: yet more sources!
>
> Thanks to whoever mentioned Biturian for prompting me to go to the main web site.
> Biturian took a bit of hunting, and on the way I've found Londra.
>
> "Sword of Humakt, Priest of Orlanth..."
> "At present Londra is serving under the Wind Temple as a priest of Orlanth.."
>
> So either Londra joined Orlanth (some variant or other), or Vinga has a temple at the
> Wind Temple. (She probably does, of course, but this is some early documentation
> that may keep Dave happy).
>
No doubt a shrine at least. I'd be inclined to treat any Orlanth temple as an equalsize temple to Vinga, due to their relationship.
> Meanwhile back at Biturian:
> "Norayeep and I then paid a complimentary 5 Lunars each to Farangar to become
> Lay Members for the ceremony"
> So a Praxian female can be a lay member.
> And yes, we have a woman (rank unspecified) questioning the candidates for
> initiation.
>
I think that was Arellia. Ruric also makes an appearance later in Biturian's travels.
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:22:01 +0100
> From: "Hibbs, Philip" <philip.hibbs_at_tnt.co.uk>
> Subject: RE: The Glorantha Digest V6 #142
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:40:55 -0800
> From: David Dunham <dunham_at_pensee.com>
> Subject: Re: Chaos; Vinga
>
> Keith Nellist is
>
> > uncomfortable with the idea that Orlanthi amd Praxian anti-chaos
> > attitude somehow causes chaos effects or summons it.
>
> To take an Orlanthi example, kinstrife is Chaos. This doesn't seem to be
> the case in Dara Happa, though presumably kin do kill each other
> occasionally.
>
> I think the idea that each culture brings about its own enemy is pretty
> Gloranthan. Partly this is the world's reaction to the sort of magic they
> do. Partly it's directly because of the sort of magic they do. For example,
> the Storm Bulls conduct mighty Chaos-defeating rituals every year, and
> somehow they always have something Chaotic to kill.
Storm Bull and Uz teaching show us that Chaos is ever present. waiting to devour the world. Perhaps this is because Orlanthi areas are places where in Godtime where Chaos was strong, and where the Myths of the defeat of Chaos are necessary to be enacted to protect the world.
Take a look at the journals of Paulis Longvale, in COT, as well as at the histories included in Dorastor:Land of Doom. Chaos is a very real, very objective threat in Glorantha, and the Lunar Empire recognized this. This is why the Talastari were granted the Risklands and the freedom to worship Orlanth as they chose. Perhaps they recognized, wisely, that the old ways of Orlanth were best in this one instance,. as none of their Chaos-controlling powers could tame Dorastor. Although a great scenario idea could be a Lunar Satrap and factions within the Lunar College of Magic attempting to turn Dorastor into one gigantic weapon against the enemies of the Empire! This could be a great Lunar/Orlanthi teamup campiagn!
> <Big Pam Carlson-Dave Dunham snip>
> As to the lack of mythic importance, I must fault your logic. There are
> after all no myths of Issaries, Chalana Arroy, or Lhankor Mhy, except the
> LBQ. This implies that their mythic role is simply Orlanth's followers.
> Which surely isn't correct. Heck, I'm not even sure there are any Ernalda
> myths that don't include Orlanth.
>
Myths that are *published*. Chalana Arroy is worshipped as a mighty goddess on her own in Peloria, and perhaps is the second most powerful Lightbringer next to Orlanth (and Ginna Jar :) Lahnkor Mhy is perhaps more honored in Esrolia than anywhere else, but seems to have followers all over the Barbarian belt. Likewise for Issaries, who is the fundamental Theyalan god of Trade - I'm sure Issaries is also honored in the Lunar Empire as well, although secondary to Etyries. And Ernalda may well have a mythology even more deep than Orlanth's, involving Yelm ( where she's called Remalada, as far as I can tell, in GRAY, pg 10). and a host of other deities. I'm sure that, as complete religions, that while their role in the Lightbringer's Quest was central to their mythologies, that the other Lightbringers (including Eurmal) have full and complete mythologies.
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:51:53 -0700
> From: "Daniel McCluskey (Volt Computer)" <a-daniem_at_microsoft.com>
> Subject: is Yelm better at fighting chaos than Urox?
>
> As an unexpected bit support to Pam's Idea that the pelorians are somehow
> better at resisting chaos than the Orlanthi, one should note that the MOST
> historically successful chaos-fighters in glorantha are the Black Sun
> worshipping trolls of the Kingdom of Ignorance. Trollpack lists two major
> decisive victories against chaos by the KoI trolls, and NO losses -- an
> utterly unprecedented success rate for ANY gloranthan culture (I think...)
>
> Now, the Black Sun is generally considered to be the "other" of Yelm, and
> would mirror pelorian magics.
Why do you feel this is the Case? I'd imagine that it would be Troll Magics.
> Therefore I assume that there is something in
> "solar" magic (light or dark) that helps to defeat chaos. I like the idea
> that it is the very structure of society (whether the "enlightened rule"
> Yelm or "decadent despotism" of BS) that resists chaos. In other words, to
> be successful, chaos must FIRST fragment the social order, then destroy the
> physical might of a solar culture.
>
I disagre. Chaos would attack a solar culture in different ways. It would sap the *rightness*, ie, "Justice", out of the Solar Order. Partially, this would manifest as Rebels and such, but GRAY seems to imply that bad rulers bring about Rebels, and that not being able to see, indentify with, and become your "other", your shadow, will bring about the outward manifestation of this Shadow. Thus, only by understanding his "other", becoming one of many, and empathising with those he once oppressed, did Yelm come to terms with Orlanth, an aspect of his "Other", and by changing himself, change Orlanth.
> Since Orlanthi and Praxian social structures are much more fragmented and
> "chaotic" (thats chaotic as in random, not as in "Primal Chaos") to begin
> with, it is much more difficult for them to eliminate Chaos (as in PC as
> opposed to randomness).
>
In Praxian and Orlanthi cultures, Chaos is far more externalised. This has it's strengths and weaknesses. Orlanthi culture is passionate, honest and forthright enough that the insidious seductions which plague more 'civilised' cultures, such as Krarsht, can't gain a foothold amongst the tempestous and forthright Orlanthi clans and kingdoms. Thus, in order to threaten these cultures, Chaos must face Storm strentgth for strength. Mindblasting horror which would make most non-lunar Pelorian's mind's crack are sent against Orlanthi cultures. I suspect that most Lunar Chaosfighting techniques were learned from the northern Orlanthi cultures that bordered southern Peloria, like Tarsh.
> Another possible interpretation is that by ignoring the "chaoticness" of
> chaos, the Solar cultures are able to deny it a large chunk of its power.
> Thus, the "Terrible Chaos Monstrosities(tm)" that the orlanthi fight, become
> "just another buncha' digijelm" when facing Yelmies.
>
Check out GRAY. They may not have called it Chaos per se, but the Pelorians fought against horrors in the Darkness that would have been called Chaos by any of the Storm Peoples just the same.
> Further support for this theory can be found in the basic outlook on "what
> makes a ruler Great" between the cultures. For Orlanthi/Praxian Leaders,
> the measure of greatness is the Power of their enemies. Thus the Uroxi
> HeroQuestor is always looking for the heropath with the biggest Chaotic he
> can find (thus pulling more chaos into his myth/reality). Whereas a Great
> Emporer, being by definition all powerful, defeats his enemies with a
> minimum of fuss and effort -- thus creating heropaths that minimize an
> enemies power.
>
Again, I disagree. What makes an Orlanthi king great are his or her Courage, Wisdom, Generosity, Justice, Honor, and Piety. What makes a great Dara Happan Emperor is blessing by the Gods and holding to the teachings of Yelm and Antirius. Orlanthi leaders are allowed to screw up, they just have to set things right again. Yelmic leaders aren't allowed to admit to imperfection. Yelm made his own mess by not seeing his own shadow and dealing with it, he learned this lesson in the underworld. Orlanth defeated Chaos by ultimately admitting he was wrong and scrwed up as well. I think you can find a lot more parallels in the LBQ and GRoY then many may want to admit.
> To answer my original question, I think that Urox is better at fighting
> chaos, but that it is no accident that there is MUCH less chaos in peloria
> to fight ;-)
>
Fight physically, that is. :)
> danm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:00:49 +0100
> From: "Jane Williams" <jane_at_williams.nildram.co.uk>
> Subject: Vinga, Orlanth, Air
> Alex says:
> > (the Red Hair Lodge sounds jolly-gosh like a Temple to me
> Sorry. The original version probably was, but these days the Red Haired Lodge is
> where Vingans expect to go when they die. (They've got their own bit of the Afterlife,
> separate from Orlanth's Hall. Not a full cult??)
>
Being that I am somewhat objectivist, and believe that the Gods exist indepently of worshippers, I can believe that Vinga has her own little peice of Heroplane real estate. What exists for a God depends on what they accomplished in Godtime,not on how many worshippers they have now.Chris Bell had some good bits from really ancient sources:
Why, Garsh, thanks!
> > membership is open to "Any who hold breath in their lungs", as according
> to Cults of Prax,
> Hmmm. Sure that was OA, not OT? The Air connection sounds more Thunderous to
> me. It seems to have been dropped from the RoC writeup for some reason.
>
Because of the general change in the position of Rune Lords in Glorantha. Arellia was a victim of the RQ3 Paradigm shift.
> > Ruric's female companion from the rules excerpts of RQ2 eventually becomes a
> > Wind Voice of Orlanth (presumably of the Adventurous subcult.)
> I know I don't understand RQ2 terminology, but surely a Wind Voice is a Storm
> Voice? Thunderous?
>
In RQ2, I was under the impression that Thunderous was a fully seperate cult from Adventurous, although closely linked. Presumably, more Storm/Air powers than Adventurous, while adventurous kept the nice goodies like Teleportation.
> > A female Orlanth Priestess, who is not named, is also mentioned in "Calling the
> > Spirit of the Wind" in the Travels of Biturian Varosh, when an Orlanth worship
> > service is held at the Pairing Stone.
> I'll have to see if that's on the Glorantha web site, but again she sounds Thunderous
> rather than Adventurous to me. All sounds like good stuff!
>
In RQ3, she would be.
> > For those that don't share that view, Kolat may also be be avilable for
> > those of Shamanic bent. I actually like the idea of Orlanthi
> > Storm-Witches, who worship the Great Lord of Storms in small groups and
> > his brother, the father of sylphs,dancing around fires smeared with woad.
> Yes! Love it! I'm *really* not convinced there are enough of them to form a Cult, but
> there doesn't need to be. Just a coven....
>
Just another way to honor Orlanth. We know old windy was a lecherous fellow. Who knows what goes on during those night time Storm Rites? Maybe the Wind Children come down for visits...Perhaps the Wind Children are the results of matings between humans and Sylphs in Godtime?
Chris Bell
argrath_at_ix.netcom.com
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