Vinga, Orlanth and stuff from Richard, Jeff on 1998-09-21 (Glorantha Digest Vol 06)

From: Richard, Jeff <Jeff.Richard_at_metrokc.gov>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:58:12 -0700

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Hi there -

Interesting batch of messages - some strange and silly, others rather thought-provoking.

Why don't I start with the strange and silly:

>The free thinking and humourous
>Orlanthi are now no more. They have been replaced by Nietzchean
>Anglo-Saxon Ubermensch. Reattach that chain, girls, cause the lads say
>that you cant have storm powers.
>All those proto-fascist hero-wars philosophers can get stuffed if they
>think any thinking gloranthophile is going to play in a game where men
>are real men and the girls have creation in their bellies and nowhere
>else.

Um... yeah. Whatever. Nice nostalgic use of the word "fascist" - it brings me back to my salad days seminaring at Evergreen State College. I wonder, is that some snide reference to my acknowledged propensity to vote GOP? Just for the record, I dislike socialism of the right just as much as I dislike socialism of the left. BTW, as far as philosophers go I prefer Wittgenstein to Neitzche (who I admittedly prefer to Kant).

Jane, on the other hand, has raised some interesting and worthy points: >It sounds completely weird to me, since fighting requires abilities in which >men have an advantage (size, strength) but Thundering is straight magic. I >can see the Rain bit possibly being fertilisation of Ernalda's fields and hence >male (then why is Heler often seen as homo.?), but not the wind and thunder. >Anyone want to explain?

This is how I currently view things:
Ultimately, only Orlanth provides Thundering to the Orlanthi. Some gods that are essentially little more than approachable aspects of Orlanth (take the Thunder Brothers - the sons of Orlanth) may also provide the "storm" package, complete with the feat of thunder, but that does not contradict the truism - only Orlanth Thunders. Of course, that isn't the end of the story.

The main folk who can summon Orlanth's Thunder are the Storm Voices. They are exclusively male. However, other folk can be taught this feat - if their cultic affiliation is compatible with Orlanth Thunderer. For example, this is the case with Vinga worshippers, but not the case with Ernalda worshippers.

Finally, there are some folk who can command the storms simply because they can. Male, female, cultic affiliation - doesn't matter.

Finally, Heler is not seen as a "homo". He is a rather impressive martial diety who once conquered the sky and terrorized Glorantha.

>So given that they didn't bother to think about it, what the h*ll are 
>they doing saying "women can't have storm powers" before doing the
>thinking? If that's what they're saying. Or just what Jeff's saying: a very
>different thing!

Jane, you caught me while I was thinking about Orlanthi initiation and the role of men and women in their respective ceremonies. It helps if you read my previous comments in that light. Women do not participate in Orlanth's initiatory rites - even Vingans. No woman's cult provides "storm" magic since that is exclusively Orlanth's or his lesser "clones". That does not mean that women cannot learn "storm" magic or have storm powers - just that their goddesses do not. Does that make sense?

>On the question of which roles for women take you outside the 85%: surely
>what we're talking about is "outside standard gender roles", not "so far
>outside that Ernalda won't talk to you".

If you have not gone through the rites of adult initiation you are not an adult. There are two basic paths to adult initiation amongst the Sartarites - - the rites of Heort/Orlanth and the rites of Ernalda. By the way, other Orlanthi groups have different rites and even within the Sartarites there might be different paths. These paths can be seen to provide the basic outline for the division of magic among the Orlanthi into "male" and "female" magic.

Other folk have different ways of approaching Orlanth than the familiar Heortling route. For instance, the Sylilans know Orlanth as the Great Bear and the father of their cultural hero.

>He gets far more restrictive about who can join him (got to have Orlanthi >parents)

This is not true. In theory, any stranger can participate in the adulthood initiation rites and anyone can offer worship to Orlanth. Or Ernalda for that matter. Anyone who wants to be an Orlanthi man can learn Orlanth's secrets, anyone who wants to be an Orlanthi woman can learn Ernalda's mysteries.

>and thinks women should know their place and do what they're told.

This is certainly not the case. Remember that in Orlanthi society, the men listen to the women. The role of Ernalda is not passively reflecting the glory of Orlanth - she is the inspiration for many of Orlanth's accomplishments - when Orlanth would initially prefer to simply smash his foes and wreak havok, Ernalda is the one who shows Orlanth the possibility of better and greater things.

Ernalda is much more than simply some passive goddess - she is goddess of the spiritual earth, whose power is not found in solid things, but in actions, rules, ceremonies, music and familial care. Maybe that is not "fun" (do you mean that wielding the Thunder is the source of all PC entertainment?) but it is certainly very important socially and magically. Anger a god-talker of Ernalda only at your own peril.

Hero Wars greatly emphasizes the role of the Orlanthi goddesses. A god-talker of Ernalda is now as powerful as any headstrong Storm Voice. A god-talker of the Earth Witch knows secrets and mysteries that defy Lhankhor Mhy and is a match for Hantrafal in her mastery of magic. The Bandage-Roller is a violent and vengeful alternative to Chalana Arroy, and, of course, Maran Gor is truly terrifying. And yes, there is still Vinga. The days are long gone when the only worthwhile goddess for PC's was just Babeester Gor.

>You know, I'm beginning to recognise a pattern here. Put OW and OR in the
>Sky Palace and they'd be right at home. No wonder I don't like them.
>The God of Freedom has become anything but.

Unlike the Emperor, Orlanth, in his Storm King aspect, must form a ring of gods and persuade his people to work together. On occasion, Orlanth must fight his own kinfolk in order to preserve the Storm Tribe - his quarrels with Vadrus are legendary. In order to prove that he is truly King of the Gods, Orlanth must time and again demonstrate his power, his justice (which on occasion means following his own rules to his own detriment), and his willingness to sacrifice himself for his people.

Jeff

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Hi there -


Interesting batch of messages - some =
strange and silly, others rather thought-provoking.


Why don't I start with the strange and =
silly:
 >The free thinking and =
humourous
 >Orlanthi are now no more. They =
have been replaced by Nietzchean
 >Anglo-Saxon Ubermensch. Reattach =
that chain, girls, cause the lads say
 >that you cant have storm =
powers.
 >All those proto-fascist hero-wars =
philosophers can get stuffed if they
 >think any thinking gloranthophile =
is going to play in a game where men
 >are real men and the girls have =
creation in their bellies and nowhere
 >else.


Um... yeah.  Whatever.  Nice =
nostalgic use of the word "fascist" - it brings me back to my = salad days seminaring at Evergreen State College.  I wonder, is = that some snide reference to my acknowledged propensity to vote = GOP?  Just for the record, I dislike socialism of the right just = as much as I dislike socialism of the left.  BTW, as far as = philosophers go I prefer Wittgenstein to Neitzche (who I admittedly = prefer to Kant).

Jane, on the other hand, has raised =
some interesting and worthy points:
 >It sounds completely weird to me, =
since fighting requires abilities in which >men have an advantage = (size, strength) but Thundering is straight magic. I >can see the = Rain bit possibly being fertilisation of Ernalda's fields and hence = >male (then why is Heler often seen as homo.?), but not the wind and = thunder. >Anyone want to explain?

This is how I currently view =
things:
 Ultimately, only Orlanth provides =
Thundering to the Orlanthi.  Some gods that are essentially little = more than approachable aspects of Orlanth (take the Thunder Brothers - = the sons of Orlanth) may also provide the "storm" package, = complete with the feat of thunder, but that does not contradict the = truism - only Orlanth Thunders.  Of course, that isn't the end of = the story.

The main folk who can summon Orlanth's =
Thunder are the Storm Voices.  They are exclusively male.  = However, other folk can be taught this feat - if their cultic = affiliation is compatible with Orlanth Thunderer.  For example, = this is the case with Vinga worshippers, but not the case with Ernalda = worshippers.

Finally, there are some folk who can =
command the storms simply because they can.  Male, female, cultic = affiliation - doesn't matter.

Finally, Heler is not seen as a =
"homo".  He is a rather impressive martial diety who = once conquered the sky and terrorized Glorantha.

>So given that they didn't bother =
to think about it, what the h*ll are 
 >they doing saying "women =
can't have storm powers" before doing the >thinking? If that's = what they're saying. Or just what Jeff's saying: a very >different = thing!

Jane, you caught me while I was =

thinking about Orlanthi initiation and the role of men and women in =
their respective ceremonies.&nbsp; It helps if you read my previous =
comments in that light.&nbsp; Women do not participate in Orlanth's =

initiatory rites - even Vingans.  No woman's cult provides = "storm" magic since that is exclusively Orlanth's or his = lesser "clones".  That does not mean that women cannot = learn "storm" magic or have storm powers - just that their = goddesses do not.  Does that make sense?

>On the question of which roles for =
women take you outside the 85%: surely >what we're talking about is = "outside standard gender roles", not "so far >outside = that Ernalda won't talk to you".

If you have not gone through the rites =
of adult initiation you are not an adult.  There are two basic = paths to adult initiation amongst the Sartarites - the rites of = Heort/Orlanth and the rites of Ernalda.  By the way, other = Orlanthi groups have different rites and even within the Sartarites = there might be different paths.  These paths can be seen to = provide the basic outline for the division of magic among the Orlanthi = into "male" and "female" magic.

Other folk have different ways of =
approaching Orlanth than the familiar Heortling route.  For = instance, the Sylilans know Orlanth as the Great Bear and the father of = their cultural hero.

>He gets far more restrictive about =
who can join him (got to have Orlanthi >parents) 


This is not true.  In theory, any =
stranger can participate in the adulthood initiation rites and anyone = can offer worship to Orlanth.  Or Ernalda for that matter.  = Anyone who wants to be an Orlanthi man can learn Orlanth's secrets, = anyone who wants to be an Orlanthi woman can learn Ernalda's = mysteries.

>and thinks women should know their =
place and do what they're told.


This is certainly not the case.  =
Remember that in Orlanthi society, the men listen to the women.  = The role of Ernalda is not passively reflecting the glory of Orlanth - = she is the inspiration for many of Orlanth's accomplishments - when = Orlanth would initially prefer to simply smash his foes and wreak = havok, Ernalda is the one who shows Orlanth the possibility of better = and greater things.

Ernalda is much more than simply some =
passive goddess - she is goddess of the spiritual earth, whose power is = not found in solid things, but in actions, rules, ceremonies, music and = familial care.  Maybe that is not "fun" (do you mean = that wielding the Thunder is the source of all PC entertainment?) but = it is certainly very important socially and magically.  Anger a = god-talker of Ernalda only at your own peril.

Hero Wars greatly emphasizes the role =
of the Orlanthi goddesses.  A god-talker of Ernalda is now as = powerful as any headstrong Storm Voice.  A god-talker of the Earth = Witch knows secrets and mysteries that defy Lhankhor Mhy and is a match = for Hantrafal in her mastery of magic.   The Bandage-Roller = is a violent and vengeful alternative to Chalana Arroy, and, of course, = Maran Gor is truly terrifying.  And yes, there is still = Vinga.  The days are long gone when the only worthwhile goddess = for PC's was just Babeester Gor.

>You know, I'm beginning to =
recognise a pattern here. Put OW and OR in the >Sky Palace and = they'd be right at home. No wonder I don't like them.

>The God of Freedom has become =
anything but.


Unlike the Emperor, Orlanth, in his =
Storm King aspect, must form a ring of gods and persuade his people to = work together.  On occasion, Orlanth must fight his own kinfolk in = order to preserve the Storm Tribe - his quarrels with Vadrus  are = legendary.  In order to prove that he is truly King of the Gods, = Orlanth must time and again demonstrate his power, his justice (which = on occasion means following his own rules to his own detriment), and = his willingness to sacrifice himself for his people.

Jeff 

 

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End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #202