>> Then why does illumination free you from so many worldly
>>entanglements?
>Does it? What _worldly_ entanglements does it free you from exactly?
Geases which restrict your actions in the world - what you can, or cannot, eat, drink, ride, wear, etc. Worldly rules which you have to obey.
>Surely it can rather be said to free you from the 'supernatural', or
>unworldly? It doesn't feed your hunger but it makes you immune to
>spirits of reprisal. Not what I think of as worldly.
But exactly the sorts of things that mystics think of as worldly. I do X in the physical world, and get Y reaction from the spiritual world. Note the use of the term 'world' .
>Fair point. But, this leaves us with illumination that is exactly the
same
>as RuneQuest sight: both claim to give a view of the world as it is, as
>opposed to how it appears. In this fashion both are positivistic, and I
>cant see that this makes the insight more 'mystical.'
Not at all. The runequest sight allows you to view the world in a (supposedly) objective way. Illumination reveals that objectivity is an illusion. In what way are these the same? They are both perceptions, yes. They are not even particularly compatible perceptions, no.
>The point is: illumination is said to give insight into the systemic
>nature of the world (an example: to realise that your culture defines
>what chaos is, and what is good/evil is a systemic insight).
Illumination reveals that systematic descriptions of the world are false. illumination deffinitely does not 'reveal the systematic nature of the world' in any shape or form.
>And because of that it simply can't be said to be outside the system,
>since that would contradict the fact that everything is systemic.
To the illuminate nothing is systematic, everything is subjective.
>Now look at two important, illuminated gods; The Red Goddess and
>Nysalor. What do they have in common? Nysalor was created after >time
and spent his time walking around in Dorastor.
>Terribly materialistic for two gods of trancendence dont you think?
To (probably innacuratley) quote Moulana Rumi, a great Sufi mystic :
"I can describe the moon to you, I can even point at the moon up in the sky. But if you want to see the moon yourself, at some point you must stop looking at my finger."
Nysalor and Rufelza are fingers pointing to the light of illumination. But the light of _your_ illumination is not in them, it is in _you_.
This is quite different to the theistic view that divine grace is something to be bestowed upon mortals by the gods.
>Hey, I think I deserve a nomination for the prize for biggest
flamestarter
And a very fine flame it is too. It's ceratainly keeping me nice and warm.
Si
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