Re: The Glorantha Digest V6 #221

From: Bryan Maloney <bjm10_at_cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:18:36 -0400 (EDT)


>The Glorantha Digest Monday, September 28 1998 Volume 06 : Number 221
>
>
>
>TABLE OF CONTENTS
>
> Peter Metcalfe Horse for Orlanthi
> Kevin Rose Re: HW comments
> Thomas Gottschall Bows and Orlanthi
> Simon Hibbs Re: An illuminated question
> Simon Hibbs Re: Oddi's illumination
> Ashley Munday Miscelanea (if that's how you spull it)
> Simon Hibbs Re:Illumination
> Hibbs, Philip [none]
> richardc_at_sypte.co.uk Horsey types
> Richard Meints Hero Wars...
> bjm10_at_cornell.edu Arching Orlanthi
> Thomas Gottschall Orlanthi holy sites
> bjm10_at_cornell.edu Process/Result
>
>RULES OF THE ROAD
>
>1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially
> not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated.
> If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show"
> please do. But don't include the whole message you praise.
>2. Use an appropriate Subject line.
>3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a
> point-by-point basis.
>4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready
> to stand by it.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:31:27 +1200 (NZST)
>From: metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz (Peter Metcalfe)
>Subject: Horse for Orlanthi
>
>Kevin Rose:
>
>>In particular, I would assume that there is some sort of diety that those
>>Orlanthi who raise horse have some relationship to? Is this true, not
>>true, etc?
>
>There are quite a few. Elmal gives his worshippers "Healthy Horses"
>according to KoS p196 and is said to have married the Horse-Loving
>Daughter of Orlanth who may be Redaylde, ancestress of the Berenthings.
>The myth of Hyalor and Hippoi is known to the Orlanthi as the Hyaloring
>triachy of Runegate was incorporated into the Colymar tribe. Elsewhere
>they might have different gods, Galan being a distinct possibility in
>Ralios.
>
>- --Peter Metcalfe
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:37:40 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Kevin Rose <vladt_at_interaccess.com>
>Subject: Re: HW comments
>
>Loren wrote:
>
>> So, here are two of the senior NPCs in my carmanian
>> campaign, who could never be described properly in pure roolz terms before.
>>
>
>Why was it not possible to do this before? The actual character abilities
>are skills and abilities, just as they are in RQ. Was there something
>restricting people from writing down fairly clear descriptions of what a
>character did or was motivated by?
>
>Sure, you didn't get explicitly rewarded for it, but I always found it
>easier to play a character that had a physical description, some idea how
>they dress, why they chose to do what they do, and why they were wherever
>the game started at. I notice that these are mostly missing from most of
>the character write-ups.
>
>I like Hero Wars. Some of it's ideas for hero questing are very cool and
>make the process much easier. The levels of mastery mechanic is
>outstanding. But the details of the character creation process is not my
>favorite part. Good idea, somewhat marred execution.
>
>
>
>A basic difference between RQ and HW is that you can compare RQ to the
>movie "Aliens", while HW is the "A Team" TV show. In RQ death is an
>always possible outcome of any engagement if your are unlucky or the other
>guy is fairly lucky. But in HW you know that it is almost impossible for
>anything really bad to happen to you, as you are the cast. You can
>charge into the fight screaming and swinging axes, but you know at the end
>everyone (including the bad guys) will mostly just be bruised and tired.
>
>Kevin
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:58:09 +0100
>From: Thomas Gottschall <Bloodtooth_at_gmx.net>
>Subject: Bows and Orlanthi
>
>Hi everyone,
>
>Jane Williams :
>
>> [...] she can get them from Elmal. So why don't male warriors get them? I
>> made a few
>> hints in the write-up so far (Elmal doesn't trust his beautiful wife Hippoi
>> to the blokes!), but how about Bow skills? Why don't all Orlanthi
>> warriors get bow skills from Elmal, instead of messing about with the
>> inferior javelin? I'm sure there's a good reason, but I've never figured out
>> what it is.
>
>I think there are multiple reasons why this could be. First (mundane
>explanation) most people agree that Elmali and Orlanthi display some healthy
>rivalry. This would let me think that if Orlanthi want to get bow skills they
>are discuraged to ask the Elmali. Then it's obvious that the Orlanthi think
>close combat is much more honourous than kiling your foe with an arrow. The
>javelin seems to be something in between, not like a sword but better than the
>bow. And then it symbolizes Orlanth's lightning. Now to the mystical
>stuff. At
>the hill of gold Elmal gets robbed of much by Orlanth but not of his bow. And
>though Elmal is Orlanth's loyal thane no one said they were expecially good
>friends or that they shared company in the Godtime. And maybe the best reason
>not to use bows as an Orlanthi is at page 66 of KoS. In the last contest
>Orlanth defeats Yelm's bow skills by drawing a sword : Death. And now for the
>rules. The Orlanth write-up in RoC says Orlanth gets nothing from Elmal. Seems
>that steeling Elmal's stuff should be enough.
>
>- --
>bye, Thomas
>
>Email : Bloodtooth_at_gmx.net
>Enchanted Forest : http://home.pages.de/~Enchanted.Forest/
>
>Let those who _wish_ the best for you never live too long, they are like
>poisonous pit snakes, waiting for the right moment to strike !" Irk, the
>Deadly
>- - Tergavi of the Dark Paw packs
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:10:22 +0100
>From: Simon Hibbs <simonh_at_msi-uk.com>
>Subject: Re: An illuminated question
>
>Michael Cule:
>
>>For what it's worth, I would say because Chaos was no longer something
>>OTHER to him. He saw the Chaos in the heart of his own Law.
>
>Gorgeously put.
>
>>Which does not say that Chaos stops injuring the
>>world just because you become Illuminated, just that you can't feel it
>any
>>more.
>
>The world is an illusion of false reality, so who cares about chaos?
>Indeed.
>
>
>Simon Hibbs
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:48:20 +0100
>From: Simon Hibbs <simonh_at_msi-uk.com>
>Subject: Re: Oddi's illumination
>
>Oliver D. Bernuetz :
>
>>Why did Oddi the Keen lose his Sense Chaos ability when he became
>>illuminated?
>
>Metaphysicaly, chaos is not a problem for illuminates, it's irrelevent
>to them. They have a different relationship with the gloranthan cosmos
>than other mortals. They live in a world of pure subjectivity where
>classification and 'analysis' has no power over them. Of course, it also
>works the other way round. The illuminate knows that such pigeonholeing
>and sytematism has no value and so for them the 'power' of sense chaos
>is a self-desception.
>
>
>Simon Hibbs
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:50:55 +0100
>From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday_at_liffe.com>
>Subject: Miscelanea (if that's how you spull it)
>
>Ian Thompson made a comment:
>
>"I didn't like the HW character descriptions we just saw, they read like
>something out of a computer game..."
>
>This sort of underlies the general problem I've seen with HW, or at
>least the discussions about them. Chunks end up sounding like computer
>wank-speak. We have as three main examples:
>
>"HW is more scalable than RQ."
>"HW is supports a higher level of abstraction than RQ."
>"HW uses a different paradigm to RQ."
>
>Lets just finish it off with "HW makes you more productive than RQ and
>helps you leverage your existing investment in Glorantha."
>
>Changing the subject:
>
>David Dunham said he liked the idea of cities being represented as
>directed graphs...
>Alex said bi-directional graphs would be better...
>Ashley listens to a couple of English teachers he plays with stampeding
>for the door...
>
>There again, they did come back when bribed with 100 word character
>descriptions, being fairly terse communicators when they want to be.
>
>Finally:
>
>Jane tried to defend herself from being a God Learner, but failed. As
>I've never read KoS all the way through (It mouldered on a shelf for a
>while before I found some mug to palm it off on) the first real mention
>of Vinga I saw was on her site, so it's her fault. Prepare the ducking
>stool!
>
>Ash
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:35:26 +0100
>From: Simon Hibbs <simonh_at_msi-uk.com>
>Subject: Re:Illumination
>
>Frank Rafaelsen :
>
>>According to illumination everything is systemic, even illumination.
>
>Given your definition of systemic, at least as I understand your
>description of it, I'll accept that for now.
>
>>If objectivety is an illusion then you cant objectively be said
>>to be illuminated.
>
>In fact, you can't objectively say anything.
>
>>It is impossible to have an objective view of
>>subjectivety.
>
>Perhaps some positivists would disagree, but ok.
>
>>The result; _any_ world view is a valid as illumination,
>>since they are all systemic.
>
>Not neceserily. It depends entirely on your criteria for validity. You
>_seem_ to be talking about validity as an objective judgement, but such
>is not possible, so how is it relevent?
>
>>Illumination can in no way be said to be closer to the truth than, say
>an >Uroxi's belief that all lunars are chaotic.
>
>Here you seem to be talking about 'objective truth'. Why should an
>illuminate give two hoots what an uroxi thinks? Who cares? All that
>matters is the personal experience of being, that is all that is valid.
>
>>The result; Illumination is no better than any other beliefs. And
>>as a special, higher, better,- point of view it doesn't exist (in
>itself).
>
>Illuminates don't care about 'any other beliefs' because they are not
>personal experiences for them. You are saying that illuminates should
>judge illumination relative to other people's experiences of the world,
>in an objective fashion. Why?
>
>
>Simon Hibbs
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:26:36 +0100
>From: "Hibbs, Philip" <philip.hibbs_at_tnt.co.uk>
>Subject: [none]
>
>Sung by the Lunar soldiery, to the tune of "Daisy, Daisy":
>
>Moonson, Moonson,
>Give us your orders, do.
>We're all crazy
>'bout going to war for you!
>We'll make it a glorious battle,
>We'll slaughter them like cattle,
>And send defeat-
>- -ed foes to breed
>With Roan-Ur and his Broo!
>
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~PhilHibbs/
>Any view of things that is not strange is false
> - Neil Gaiman, Sandman
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:21:07 +0000
>From: <richardc_at_sypte.co.uk>
>Subject: Horsey types
>
>This is one of those things I've never quite managed to get my
>head around - can anyone tell me briefly (or point me towards
>a source) about the relationships (if any) between the Grazer
>folk of Dragon Pass, the Pol Joni, The Pure Horse Tribe of Prax,
>and the Pentan nomads?
>
>I have read King of Sartar so I know about the marvellously-
>named Derek Poljoni (and his brothers Colin, Wally and Stan?)
>There'll be no racial connection there as they're Sartarites by
>blood but perhaps they got the techniques of horse-borne
>life from one of the other groups?
>
>Richard Crawley
>
>Look - No full stops!
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: 28 Sep 1998 07:26:29 -0400
>From: Richard Meints <rmeints_at_ford.com>
>Subject: Hero Wars...
>
>Hello,
>to: glorantha_at_chaosium.com
>
>Speculation abounds about how to write up Hero Wars characters...
>
>As Nick Brooke said a few posts back, GM's are given some pretty clear
>guidelines as to how to deal with players who want to write up a
>character with skills that cover everything, kill anything, etc. Unless
>you have a GM who loves to give away the store (aka Monty Haul), I think
>you'll find that characters like Brian Tickler's only have entertainment
>value here on the digest and would never see play. Technically speaking,
>it would still take a half-competent GM about 2 seconds to kill him.
>Let's leave it at that.
>
>Do you have to understand Glorantha to play HW...
>
>In the playtests I've been in, the results have been very positive.
>We've had a pretty good range of newbies and grognards alike, ranging
>from Jeff Richard and Nick Brooke, to people who had never played/read
>anything related to Glorantha. The newbies enjoyed the game and didn't
>feel swamped or intimidated with trying to understand Glorantha.
>Granted, knowing a lot about Glorantha can be a plus, but it's not a
>prerequisite. HW does a far better job at getting you started with
>learning about and playing in Glorantha than RQ ever did, at least on
>average.
>
>Status points...
>
>While self proclaimed "geniuses" may disagree, status points have never
>bothered any of the playtesters I've encountered, at least once the
>revised rules came out. They are fantastic for non-combat contests like
>arguments, etc. and work just fine in combat. It took a little effort to
>get people out of the habit of just saying "I bet 10" and getting them
>to say the action they were attempting along with the stake, but the
>concept works well once it takes root.
>
>I wonder if a big part of the negative response to SPs by Cule's players
>comes from the way he presented it to his playtesters as a GM. If you
>feel something is flawed and sucks big time and taint your intial
>presentation of the material with that opinion, it's easy to have that
>opinion become infectious. Would you be likely to buy something from a
>salesman who heavily badmouths the product during a sales demo?
>
>The number of skills a Hero Wars PC starts with...
>
>We take a more minimal approach than Michael Schwartz's group, but that
>should never be misconstrued to mean that what my group does is right
>and/or what Michael's group does is wrong. They sound like they're
>having loads of fun, so more power to them.
>
>Most of our characters have about a dozen skills, but we also make sure
>to include flaws and/or enemies. My character is very gullible. Other
>players deal with flaws like "falls in love very easily", "pouts when
>doesn't get his way", or "never let's a woman tell him what to do".
>These flaws actually make the game all the enjoyable. The GM has used
>them to keep us on our toes. Our chief falls in love with the wrong
>woman and gets his clan in trouble. People lie to my character all the
>time and I believe them, even when it foils my plans sometimes. Enemies
>are easy and enjoyable to run. If someone hates trolls or Lunars, put
>lots of them into the encounters, but make them someone the PC's should
>work WITH. How would the clan react to Caleb "trollhater" insulting and
>driving off an Argan Argar merchant before he could sell them some badly
>needed items? Of course, if you like to play "commando in the hills" and
>not depend on anyone or have anyone depend on you, such roleplaying
>oppotunities are a little harder to orchestrate. When my clan rebelled
>against the Lunars, the people who came after us were led by our tribal
>king. Things got pretty tense. We were faced with fellow Orlanthi, not
>just nameless "baby-killing, chaos-loving" Lunars.
>
>My character's write-up, if anyone still needs a reason to pick on me...
>
>Harmast of the Danstarl clan has followed Hantrafal since he raided a
>Lunar ceremony shortly after being initiated. His allied spirit Jangle
>helps him emulate Harmast his hero and namesake. His thirst for the
>myths and beer of Minlister have often led him down foolish paths. On
>Kero Fin he harvested a Wind staff from a windberry tree, which is his
>preffered weapon. He enjoys reading about the history of Dragon Pass and
>its myths. He first successful quest was to obtain the shield of Arran.
>He provides wise counsel to his patron the Sambari King.
>
>Mythic knowledge 6/14, Cancel any magic 6/14, detect magic 6/14, draw on
>associated deity 5/15, history 8/12, drink beer 8/12, trust everyone
>8/12, evaluate treasure 6/14, read/write 8/12, wind staff 8/12, wise
>counsel 8/12, shield of Arran 8/12 *4.
>
>My character had the Sambari King added as his patron after the battle
>encounter I mentioned a few paragraphs earlier. Some of the skills have
>also changed as a result of experience. My allied spirit is still
>undefined; I haven't had the need to use it yet. The wind staff also has
>undefined abilities. I used it to levitate once, but that's about it.
>The shield of Arran is also still only vaguely defined. While powerful,
>my PC only succeeds in most skill rolls about 70% of the time. Lunar's
>don't like him, he's gullible, and his drinking usually leads to trouble.
>
>Take Care,
>Rick Meints, Education, Training & Development, 8-737-2126
>Mobile: 0976-686-454 Internet: RMeints_at_ford.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:35:34 -0400 (EDT)
>From: <bjm10_at_cornell.edu>
>Subject: Arching Orlanthi
>
>On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, The Glorantha Digest wrote:
>
>> There seem to have been worries about archery-using Orlanthi.
>
>Not on my part, but I'm a heretic, anyway. However, I see it this way.
>I tend to view the Orlanthi as being a fusion culture, made up mostly of
>elements resembling Earth "Norse" *AND* Earth "Gaelic". I realize that
>the recent fad has been to lean towards the Gaelic flavor, but the Norse
>flavor has a long vintage. Anyway, the Norse, for all their "Cry
>'Wotan!' and spreadeagle their king!" attitude to battle, were also
>longbowmen, at least according to what I've read here and there. The
>sagas don't talk about it much, since it doesn't make for as exciting a
>story.
>
>I would say that the Orlanthi will use bows, but they don't make them
>into cultic objects, by and large.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:17:31 +0100
>From: Thomas Gottschall <Bloodtooth_at_gmx.net>
>Subject: Orlanthi holy sites
>
>Hi everyone,
>
>I don't know if someone already came up with this idea.
>
>I think that the holy sites of the Orlanthi should be not just be clean and
>artificial temples in the middle of a town but that temples and shrines should
>be build near sites where Orlanth showed himself. E.g. if there is a landmark
>where lightning struck be it just a tree or an old shed would it not be more
>appropriate to worship Orlanth here than elsewhere ? And just think about high
>mountains. There is more wind there, more storms, more rain, more thunder and
>more lightning. Just the best place for an Temple to Orlanth and guess what
>they have done it - look where the Old Wind Temple is or on Kero Fin. This
>said
>I think there are much more holy spots in Sartar then was apparent and maybe
>has an spirit which could be contacted. Just look at all the opportunities
>this
>could offer : here you can befriend those spirits, they can be helpful or
>malign if offended. What do you think ?
>
>- --
>bye, Thomas
>
>Email : Bloodtooth_at_gmx.net
>Enchanted Forest : http://home.pages.de/~Enchanted.Forest/
>
>Let those who _wish_ the best for you never live too long, they are like
>poisonous pit snakes, waiting for the right moment to strike !" Irk, the
>Deadly
>- - Tergavi of the Dark Paw packs
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:57:45 -0400 (EDT)
>From: <bjm10_at_cornell.edu>
>Subject: Process/Result
>
>> In theatre and film, the processes are not important to the play though
>> they might be to the actors and audience. Shakespeare does not explain
>> the nuances of each attack MacDuff makes, nor each defense Macbeth puts
>> forth. The "rules" of the play do not require those. Instead, the precise
>
>That's fine and dandy--if you insist that the literary or dramatic
>paradigm guide your games. While I agree that it can be done, it's not
>my cup of tea.
>
>Before somebody goes off on an irrational tangent trying to "prove" how
>"superior" the literary paradigm is, allow me to indulge in a little
>speculative philology:
>
>"Not my cup of tea" probably comes from a time when hosts would routinely
>offer something like tea to their guests. Being good hosts, they would
>also inquire as to how their guests would like their tea, be it plain,
>with some sugar, with milk, with sugar and milk, with cinnamon, etc. The
>host (or his servant) would retire to an appropriate location where the
>tea was already steeping and prepare the appropriate cups. The host (or
>servant) would then bring out the already prepared cups of tea and
>present them to the guests. If a cup were presented to the wrong person,
>someone who had asked for milk getting a cup with no milk, an appropriate
>response would be "No, thank you, that's not my cup of tea." It was no
>commentary on the superiority nor inferiority of a particular way to make
>tea, merely a statement of personal taste.
>
>I have played under a literary paradigm, and I agree that it can be
>entertaining, but it's just not my cup of tea.
>
>> You may discover that you don't need to write additional rules, as long
>> you *visualize* the processes involved in the scene. With your theatre
>> background, I'm surprised that you have found difficulty interpreting
>> HERO WARS contests. Think it through as if you were blocking scenes in a
>> play, and focus on *describing the outcomes* of character actions against
>> the context of the setting, rather than *modeling the processes*.
>
>Some people enjoy process. Whether or not one understands or accepts
>this fact, some people enjoy process even more than outcome.
>
>> just isn't very rivetting in itself. It's necessary to connect
>> these to game-world situations and actions -- the only question is:
>> how, exactly?
>>
>> The first thing is to get your players to do their bit; they ought
>> to be describing the actions they attempt, not just staking SPs.
>> (Or even, just describing them, and letting the GM assign SPs to suit.)
>
>The fact that one can make something work does not mean that this is the
>particular way I would prefer something to work. I reserve final
>judgement until HW is published, but it looks like I'll be buying HW
>stuff to plunder for my RQ campaign.
>
>> For me, playing RuneQuest is all about having a good pseudo-realistic
>> system that allows players (through their characters) to explore
>> existence and adventure in Glorantha
>> So, it is Glorantha that I like as such (rather than RQ) its rich
>> mythology and history and geography, and overall weirdness and
>> opportunity for adventure
>
>But I like both--in fact, the juxtaposition of what is "supposed to
>happen" mythically against the limits of something that tries to appear
>"realistic" can be, in and of itself, entertaining. It also keeps the
>mythic elements from becoming commonplace--it helps the bizarre stay
>bizarre.
>
>But my wife and I are getting to the point where we've started giving
>Hercules and Xena the MST3K treatment...
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #221
>***********************************
>

End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #225


Powered by hypermail