Re: Identifying Gods

From: Sergio Mascarenhas <sermasalmeida_at_mail.telepac.pt>
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:17:04 +0100


Richard Crawley:
>>Now it's pretty obvious that language varies from country
>>to country - I believe the first European traders to reach
>>India in the post-Vasco da Gama age of exploration thought
>>that the Hindus they met were Christians because of the way
>>they prayed with their palms together

Peter Metcalfe:
>De Gama actually spotted a temple in India which contained
>what he thought was the Virgin and Child and knelt down before
>it in prayer. It actually was Devaki nursing Krishna.

Today Portuguese historians tend to think that the reality is a lit more complex, and a lot more fascinating. They think that Vasco da Gama was not fooled by superficial similarities like those you point. After all, he stoped off the coast of India for several months, time enough to aknowledge the difference between hinduism and christianism. And the Portuguese king had sent spies to India by land before the sea expedition. So, why did he behave like if he thought hindus were christians, and described them as so when returning to Portugal? He faced an imediate problem while in India, and knew he would face a bigger problem when comming back to Portugal:

The imediate problem was that he needed to get the friendship of the hindu authorities in Calicut, the center of Indian sea trade. Muslins were successfuly turning the hindus against the Portuguese, both in comercial and religious grounds. Vasco da Gama needed to make clear to the hindus that he wanted to deal peaceffuly with them, that his enemies were not the hindus but the muslins (with which there could be no compromise). Praying in an hindu temple was a diplomatic action.

That action raised a problem though: christians could describe it as idollatry and apostasy, two major sins. And when returning to Lisbon, Vasco da Gama knew that he was in a bad position. His expedition (and the whole discoveries business) faced strong oposition from influencial parties in the nobility. The king Manuel (and king John before him) was compromised with its success. If it failed, the king would loose prestige and power. What happens is that Vasco da Gama's expedition was a failure on the three accounts where it should succed:
- - It was a religious failure - the indians were not christians. - - It was a diplomatic failure - he failed to establish good fiplomatic relations with the Calicut.
- - It was a comercial half-failure - he didn't bring back all the riches he was expected to bring.

So, the king was at stake, and Vasco da Gama with him.

The only field where the expedition was a success was the military: he was able to demostrate the power of Portuguese (and European) arms to the indians.

Da Gama needed to paint reality in somewhat better colors then the truth. He compounded the diplomatic failure by establishing peaceful relationships with some minor powers of the indian coast. The comercial failure by promising much more in future expeditions then what he was able to report. And the religious failure by playing the superficial similarities between hinduism and christianism, and presenting the indians as christians.

The irony was that what realy turned the opinion of those that oposed the expedition into more favorable terms was the military bit: these were noblemen and warriors. The promise of a battle field in the Indian ocean was an actrative prospect.

Richard Crawley:
>>why aren't there more cases in Glorantha where gods with
>>different names in different parts of the world are generally
>>recognised to be the same being?

Peter Metcalfe:
>Well they do. Identifying Kahar as Orlanth or Balumbasta as
>Lodril would cause nobody problems. What causes more
>problems is implying that the god of [despised ethnic group]
>is the same god as your own god. Saying that Kargzant is
>the Sun God Yelm is looking for trouble in Dara Happa.

Sorry Peter, but I doubt that an Orlanthi would think that his god, the god of gods, can be confounded with some godling of a distant place, specialy when comparing Orlanthi religious practices with those of that strange people. Of course, he could recognise in the religious practices of that foreigner people a minor manifestation of Orlanth (like muslins do in relation to christianins and judaism); or he could consider that it was a minor power subject to Orlanth (a demi-god or a minor god). This is different from the search for exotic branches of our religion. The Portuguese always seeked to ally themselves with the christians of Ethiopia (of Prestes John fame), Nestorians, and christians of Saint Tome' (don't know the exact name in English) in India. The problem was that these were highly minoritary (with the exception of the Ethiopians) where they lived. Frex, there can be surviving Orlanthi communities in distant parts of Glorantha.

Of course, like in the case of Vasco da Gama, there oculd be an interest in acting like if he was confusing Orlanth with that minor power or manifestation.

Sergio


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