The problem with this analogy is that you're looking at different religious traditions. I dispute that there is terribly much in common between the religious attitudes of the druidic Celts and modern or medieval monotheists. There is, however, much more in common between first age and third age Orlanthi. Just because an element of culture is less in evidence at a certain point in time does not mean that it no longer exists - Argrath is more than happy to use dragon magic for example, despite the Alakoring tradition.
> Now, both in the case of RW Europeans and Orlanthi and lunars I was
> thinking on their approach at a certain moment in time. More specifically,
> I was thinking about late third age Glorantha. I know it was different in
> the past. What I say is that any given culture will have an identifiable
> pattern of behavior relating to 'ecumenism' (or lack of it) in any given
> time. This pattern may change over time, of course.
I was just saying that I do not believe that this is neccesarily the case. There are conservative elements in Orlanthi (or lets be more specific Sartarite) society, just as there were in Tarshite society (the Exiles frex). On the other hand there are many who are happy to embrace other dieties - Harvar Ironfist and Yelmalio, many tribes and Duburdan, etc. The Tarshites, Syllians, etc would be very surprised if you told them that they were unwilling to give up Orlanth. The Heortlings seem very accepting of the Aeolian creed and so on.
> Simon Hibbs:
> >Two cultures can be merrily at war with each other, only to discover
> >that they actualy worship some of the same gods.
>
> Of course, once more like in the RW (catholics fighting protestans; Spanish
> catholics fighting Portuguese catholics). Yet in Glorantha I suppose
> (notice that this is a conditional statement) that there should be a clear
> frontier between non-religious and religious wars. Followers of a given god
> (say, Orlanth) can fight each other in a non-religious war. They can even
> call on their common god to arbitrate the war (a little like the judgement
> of god and ordails (don't know the exact English word) of medieval Europe).
> But I suppose that, say, Orlanth would not allow a religious war among
> orlanthi. It simply makes no sense. This is different from the RW. In the
> RW there were religious wars between parties of the same religion and the
> same church. The example at hand is the wars between the French and the
> Italian popes of medieval Europe. In Glorantha I assume the god would solve
> the conflict before it turned into war by signaling clearly which side had
> his aproval.
Someone else has already pointed out the obvious Harmast vs Lokomyadan, Alakoring vs EWF.
> Dave Pearton:
> >A significant proportion of the lunars (the core Dara Happans) are
> >anything but inclusive - a result of the Yelm is NOT... movement
> >which still reverberates through Yelmic society in the 1600's.
>
> You seem to be confounding two different senses of the word *lunar*: The
> religious sense and the political sense. In the religious sense, a lunar is
> someone that professes a lunar religion (Red Godess, 7M, etc.). In that
> sense, Yelmies are not lunars. In the political sense, a lunar is someone
> that fits himself within the Lunar Empire. In that sense Dara Happans are
> lunars. I was only using the word lunar in the first sense. So, Dara Happan
> Yelmies are insular? true. But I never mentioned them in my message. I was
> referring to lunar-gods' worshipers. The lunar way is inclusive. It can
> even include insular gods like Yelm.
I don't believe I am. If you look at Enclosure and see the number of people in the empire that worship any of the "lunar" gods (Rufelza, YT, 7Ms, etc) you'll notice that there are very, very few. The vast majority of "lunar" citizens happily worship their normal gods. The lunar religion is a very thin crust in the empire. The don't even have as much say as they would like in the external magio-religious politics of the empire as they would like. The Tatius/Fazzur conflict, frex, was largely a Tarshite/Dara Happan one.
> >The lunars are certainly not inclusive of Orlanth either.
>
> False. They would certainly be happy to include Orlanth within the pattern
> of their religions, like they did with Yelm. The only nagging problem is
> that Orlanth doesn't want to be included. Examples: Tarsh, Sartar, Pavis.
> Lunars accept Orlanthi that don't antagonize blatantly the lunar way. The
> key is to accept to coexist with the Red Godess in peace, if not in love.
Actually the Red Goddess and Orlanth cannot co-exist. The lunars (both religiously and politically) cannot accept the existence of the Orlanth cult. They are fundamentally incompatible. The Tarshites, Syllilans, etc might have jkept a large part of their culture but they no longer worship Orlanth.
> Dave Pearton:
> >I just want to illustrate that things are not quite as simple as just
> >two patterns might indicate and this view tends to obscure more
> >than it enlightens.
>
> You know, there is only that much that one can say in GD. Most of the time
> this means that arguments will look simplistic. Anyway, look at the two
> patterns (insularity vs. inclusiveness) not as two mutually exclusive,
> opposing, black-an-white-like possibilities. I see them more as the extreme
> points in a continoum, with all shades in between.
Yes, however I just think that these particular labels don't fit either of the cultures in question.
My god that was long, apologies for boring the hell out of everyone...
See Ya,
Yak
- --
Dave Pearton
pearton_at_u.washington.edu
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Down he sank in a chair-ran his hands through his hair- +
And chanted in mimsiest tones +
Words whose utter inanity proved his insanity, +
While he rattled a couple of bones. +
+
"The Hunting of the Snark" Lewis Carroll +
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