Re: Intra-Religious Warfare

From: TTrotsky_at_aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:05:01 EDT


Sergio, replying to me:

 <<> Your original point was that intra-religious warfare could not occur - Orlanth
> just 'wouldn't allow' it, to you use your own words. It would appear from
the
> above that you have changed this to 'intra-religious warfare does exist,
but
> the good guys (from the god's POV) always win'. This is, IMO, a rather
> different point from the one that was originally being addressed.
 

 Not so. What I'm saying is that the *bad guys* are no longer part of the religious community. >>

     In short, that a war between 'loyal' and 'heretical' factions of a theist religion doesn't count as intra-religious because the heretics aren't *really* following the religion, right? While I don't accept that definition of 'intrareligious  warfare' since its seems entirely circular (by definition, you can't have a religious war between two religious factions which agree on everything) I think we've reached agreement on the end result. Quibbling over definitions seems a little pointless.

 <<> Lokamayadon did have storm powers, and pretty impressive ones at that.
> Arguably, they weren't proper Orlanthi ones (or so the people who
> defeated him would claim), but they were definately storm powers.
 

 As you say, to have storm powers is a thing; to have Orlanth's storm power is another. A war between the followers of two storm gods or two storm powers is not an intra-religious war.>>  

     Which would imply that Lokamayadon actually created (or discovered) a previously unknown god, since his storm powers must have come from *somewhere*. Still, once again, we are in agreement on the effects in Glorantha, if not the exact mechanism behind them. If the two theories can't be told apart by observation, even in principle (and I don't think they can here) there ain't a lot of point arguing over which is right :-)  

 <<I see illumination in this regard like a steath fighter on what concerns radars:
 it's not undetectable; it simply is very hard to detect. So, once your god acknowledges that you're illuminated, it will get rid of you as fast as he can, since you're even more dangerous. >>

    This is contradiction to the published information on illumination as far as I can see. OTOH, the god's worshippers are quite likely to get rid of you once they figure out you're illuminated - say, because you go around obviously breaking your religious vows and nothing bad seems to happen to you.  

 << <<For instance, in the First Age, the DH Emporer was a god, and worshipped as such, but after the events of Nysalor's life it was decided that he was just a man, after all, albeit one with important religious functions. This seems to me a pretty fundamental change, and not just an alteration in style of worship. I think if Yelm didn't want people to worship the DH Emporer as a god, he could have said so in Khordavu's reign, if not earlier. >>  

 Only men perceive the change, since this a time-ordained change.>>

     If you claim that something that looks like a change in a religion isn't really a change at all, then, again, I disagree with the argument but not with the conclusion it produces.

<< At a divine level, the DH Emperor is both a man an a god and has the proper worship where it must happen.>>

     Unless, of course, you're a post-First Age Dara Happan and know that he isn't (and never was) a god :-)  

<< Contrary to gods, men are within time. They must respect the order of events. So, they cannot predict in advance which faction will win, or they would break the time frame. What men can do is keep their faith and respect the commandments of their god. If they do so, they can be certain that they will win.>>

     Well, no, because as you've said regarding Yelm: 'Time is an alien concept
to [deities]. The order of events is unimportant from a god's POV'. Those who kept the old Yelmic beliefs that the DH Emporer was a god turned out to be wrong after the Kardenasic Clarifications, and no longer exist as a faction at all (and hence, are unlikely to win in the end). While I have no doubt that this is how theists reason, I disagree that it's certain to work out as happily as they think it will on every occaision.

Forward the glorious Red Army!

     Trotsky


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