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Nikolas LLoyd says:
>The following was quoted from King of Sartar in a discussion which I am
>joining a bit late:
> Now lets look at Whitewall - Page 148:
>
>> "The Lunar assault went well. To start, seven meteors were hurled from the
>> moon and struck precisely. They destroyed key parts of the city, including
>> the Orlanth temple. When it was buried a great gout of lightning burst
>> forth, arching over the walls to sear many hundred troops who quietly
>> awaited the assault. The Seven of Vistur built seven long ramps from the
>> ground to the wall, and although they thought it would be easy, several
>> hundred troops whose souls served as a power source died in supporting the
>> deed. Ten thousand archers loosed their shafts and the noise from the
>> flying arrows hurt the ears of the listeners. The Imperial hoplite,
>> glowing with protective magic, led the attack up the ramps. They wer met
>> by rocks which hurled themselves from the ramparts and rolled down the
>> assault ramps. Yet the Lunars pushed on."
>First thought: I see no need to take all of this literally. The rocks
>needn't be magical ones with self-hurling mechanisms, but this can be
>taken either as literary licence or a rumour which became accepted by many
>witnesses. Similarly, the numbers of troops involved in the various
>actions are likely to be wrong, and exaggerated. Let us not analyse these
>words with the wrong assumption: that they are gospel.
The only part I think could be taken as hypebole would be the "ten Thousand Archers" - this is ten Lunar regiments. The description of the magic is, I think, dead on. Hundreds of men getting fried by a lightning strike is well within the capabilities of Orlanth. Seven physical meteorites are within the capabilities of the Cratermaker or other Lunar magical units.
It is canon that a Lunar "regiment" is around a thousand men, the deaths described are less than one full unit.
[Snippage about Human Nature]
>Why do I write the above in reaction to the quote? Because one thing MUST
>be the same in Gloranthan warfare, even if all the magic and monsters make
>it seem unfamiliar: the human nature of it. Warfare in the ancient world
>was not like warfare in the Second World War, but then again it had one
>huge similarity: it was fought by people, people with hopes, fears,
>ambitions, perceptions.
>How did those Lunars charging up the ramps feel when they did it? How did
>they rate their chances of survival? Why did each individual in that mass
>choose to advance? What advantage did they think they would get? How
>important did they think they were?
>In World War Two, as many as a quarter of casualties were mental. In all
>warfare morale and rout play parts at least as great as strength and
>death. When a unit of Lunars is "destroyed" according to the sources, how
>many men died, and how many fled?
In the real Ancient world, few real causalties occured in face-to-face combat under normal conditions, by far the mjority of deaths were caused after an army routed - men cut down from behind by the victors.
In the real world there were societal penalties for fleeing (and surviving) a battle, perhaps the best instance is the Spartan mothers who would tell their sons to "come home with your shield, or on it" ie. victorious or dead/wounded. In Glorantha, we have magic which can bolster a unit's morale, but at some point even that may fail. Yes, there are elite units who stand theior ground until everyone is dead, both in the real world and Glorantha, but the majority do not have the "luxury" of that simple mindset. "Death or Glory" is a great motto, but a horrid thought when the spells are flying.
>If warfare is as dangerous as the quote above says it is in Glorantha,
>what effect will this have on peoples' willingness to participate? We
>must consider questions such as these, for on these is drama based, not
>on stats for a magical siege engine.
I don't think Glorantha is any worse to the morale of a normal trooper because of the deadliness of combat than, say, the Napoleanic wars, The American Civil war, or any of the wars of this century. Yes, there are probably Lunars and Orlanthi wandering around who scream at night, when dreams of the Bat come, and the Lunar empire might even have the concept of Shell-shock/Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and have Veteran's institutions to help them, but they are probably the only ones who would.
>Another thought: in the game "Dragon Pass", cities and fortresses are very
>dangerous places to be inside. They change hands frequently, and usually
>after the death (or at least defeat in game terms) of all the units
>inside. If Gloranthan warfare is as deadly as the quote suggests, then I
>wonder if people would like to stay in cities at all. Also, sieges would
>never last very long, as storming them rather than besieging them, would
>be such a viable option (it is ages since I last looked at K of Sartar, so
>I apologise if I am contradicted by information in that book).
Again, in the Real World in European warfare, a city or castle could surrender and have some little plunder/rape/murder take place, or it could hold out hoping for relief, and if none came and the besiegers had to storm the walls, the city would be given to the men. The citizens (as opposed to the Military) could see little impact of the siege, or be slaughtered/sold into slavery/ruled with an iron fist. The strategic importance of the city has to play a part - Why is the enemy beseiging it in the first place? If they want the skilled labor of the city, or the taxes generated, then the citizens may only see a change in their overlord with little other effect. If the city is a rebel stronghold that has been fomenting resistance to the invader, than it may be torn stone from stone, the citizens sold as slaves, and the ground salted.
>Might cities be preserved by some rituals, which make them difficult to
>take? Might city cults, perhaps allied with the stasis rune in some way,
>seek to preserve the current state of a city, and might every church
>service by the population serve to enforce this situation? Might cities
>gain over time a tremendous resistance to change attempted by
>outside influence?
yes. The rituals of "the city cult" are intended to preserve the peace, increase commerce, defend the citizens and do a thousand other things. The strength of the city is closely linked with the "strength" of the City Spirit/God's cult(s). If people do not attend services, they are weakening not only the city spirit, but little cracks may appear in the pavement, indicative of the cracks in the faith of the people in their City. Little things that a Faithful city would be able to handle easily (a fire in a cookshop, say) would be a major disaster in a weak-faith city. The City Spirit aids the Firemen, and the Firemen aid the spirit.
In a siege, there is a struggle between the mundane defenders and attacker, and between the Magical. In the Trojan War, Odysseus led a commando raid to steal the statue of ?Artemis? in an effort to disrupt the ceremonies to the "City God", thus weakening the resolve of the Trojans *and the gods who supported them*.
In the Whitewall example quoted above, the meteors are targeted at "key points", including the Orlanth temple. What were the other "key points"? probably the Temples to the City God, the Palace, the Barracks, perhaps the Main Marketplace. If the Defenders cannot perform the proper ceremonies (because their temples, ritual artifacts and priests are under tons of Rubble, then the city will fall that much easier. Obviosly, the hit on the Temple of Orlanth wasn't as successful as they hoped, since it was able to counter-strike. But what would the damagae to the Lunar soldiers have been if the Temple was still standing?
>I say the above for a number of reasons:
>1. It makes city cults important and gives a motive for everyone in a
>city to participate in city cult rituals (if the place is attacked, you
>are dead if the city is taken), which in turn might promote a sense of
>community.
Citizens should be participating in the worship of the City's God(s) at all times, not just during a siege. Sure, in Runequest, the City Gods provide the City Harmony spell, but there is much more that it provides, in the day to day aspects as well as the Major Calamity ones. Buildings are stronger and more fire resistant, foreigners are more likey to match your prices, the effects of "delayed maintenance" are less, and you have increased status when you go to other cities.
>2. It explains why people choose to band together in cities, rather than
>scattering themselves across the countryside. In a world with devastating
>assault magic, only fools would live in targets which were both fat and
>soft.
There are mundane reasons why cities are the way they are; they allow the creation of specialists who do not need to gather food to Teach, Pray, Make Implements, Trade, or a thousand other jobs which are impossible without a City-based economy.
>3. It means that the person in charge of a city, or persons within a city
>with influence, are even more powerful and interesting, since they are the
>people who might seal a city's fate, and are not here-today-dead-tomorrow
>-after-the-attack figures.
>4. It means that sieges might go on for long times, giving a new kind of
>warfare: the long siege as opposed to the quick battle. Long sieges are
>good backgrounds for adventures involving a few people (PCs), and they
>have an atmosphere of their own. Stalingrad was besieged with modern
>weapons, and Athens with old, but both had a siege atmosphere which might
>be lost in a world like the Dragon Pass game, of quick assaults.
Long sieges are the norm, Real World or Glorantha. Without a clear superiority in force (Military or Magical), the attackers will not just assault the walls hoping for a one-fell-swoop win. Most sieges are won on Morale or Starvation grounds than Assault. If you can subvert a person to open the gate/contaminate the rituals/drop the magical wards/lead a revolt in the city, it is much cheaper all around.
>5. It might mean that the way to attack a city is to attack using some
>means unforeseen by the people in the city. The citizens may enact
>rituals which counter certain forms of attack, but not others. A game of
>wits ensues, with people on both sides trying to guess what the other is
>up to. Again, this is more like an ancient siege in spirit. The magic
>changes the tools of the trade, but the human part of the game is the
>same: what will the attackers try next, and how might we counter it?
>Rumours breed with the rats in the camps, visions are seen, PCs are
>sent to find out what is going on...
And MGF is assured.
Roderick
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #324
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