Re: Hsunchen civilisations

From: TTrotsky_at_aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:21:58 EST


David Dunham:

<< Me: Without agriculture, > civilisation simply cannot work because
population densities cannot become > high enough  

 It depends on precisely what you mean by "civilization," but on the western shore of North America lived several very dense populations of huntergatherers.  California had the Chumash, who relied on acorns and fishing, while the Pacific Northwest supported several tribes with dense populations, primarily with salmon and halibut. I know the Northwest had chiefdoms, and I think California did as well.>>

     'Civilisation' means living in cities with a regional level of government and organisation. Or that's what my archeology books say, anyway. So I wouldn't call the NW native Americans 'civilised', on account of the lack of cities. They are probably good models for hsunchen cultures such as the Rathori, which do seem to have fairly high population densities. But I wouldn't say that this means the Rathori were civilised.  

<< But the easiest way hsunchen could have civilization is to be civilized --
to not be hunter-gatherers. >>

     My argument is that these people wouldn't really be hsunchen any more, although the surrounding cultures might not realise the difference. But I wouldn't expect them to have much in the way of what we think of as hsunchen magics, as described in the Telmori write-ups, for example. The Fallen Mraloti on my website are an example of the kind of thing I see happening when hsunchen try to take up agriculture. Certainly you could keep more obvious elements of the old religion than they do, but one way or the other they stop being hsunchen, IMO.

<<I don't think the Basmoli of the Grey Age who dominated parts of Seshnela and Ralios were much like the defeated Basmoli of today. It's quite likely they at one time practiced sorcery,>>

      Which would certainly mean they weren't hsunchen as I understand the concept. Greg has, I believe, stated that many cultures we think of as hsunchen aren't really, and I suspect the 1st Age Seshnelan Basmoli are such an example.

<< Nothing prevents the Kingdom of the Basmoli [Genertela Book p.79] from
being civilized, or at least chiefdom-level, people who worshipped their lion ancestors.>>

     Fair enough - but would they be hsunchen? IMO, no they wouldn't, because they wouldn't worship in the hsunchen manner. If they were cheiftain level non-agrarian people, then of course, that wouldn't be a problem. This makes their subsequent devolution a lot more plausible too, since they'd have much less far to 'fall'.  

 <<As I recall, there are hints of a Telmori civilization in Dorastor: Land of Doom. Again, I suspect the rulers of this would not much resemble the Telmori of today (who are also a defeated people). Probably Barbarian, in RQ3 terms, rather than Primitive. If people still lived in "packs" the packs would have hierarchies.>>

     If you mean the existence of 'Old Wolf Fort' I hardly think that implies much about the old Telmori culture. It could be so named because the people fought against the Telmori, for one thing. Or the original settlement may have been very different from a fort in the civilised/barbarian sense. I don't think we can deduce a lot from one name.

Forward the glorious Red Army!

     Trotsky    


End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #326


Powered by hypermail