Me>>_If_ the Closing affects swimmers and ships alike _and_ Belintar knew
>>the secrets of negating the closing while swimming _then_ it follows
>>that his secrets would be effective in helping ships defeat the Closing,
>>no?
>Yes, _if_ those presumptions are correct.
So which is incorrect? My position is that the first statement is incorrect in that the Closing does not affect swimmers. You apprently state that Belintar's secret was worthless to negating the Closing but do not explain why.
>>Is there some reason why you don't consider Belintar's
>>swimming ashore (look two paragraphs above) to be a
>>documented instance? I'm not going to waste time
>>typing numerous instances that come to mind (as well as
>>source quotes about the nature of the Closing) if Belintar's
>>example fails to convince you.
>Yow! (snatches back fingers from snapping jaws)
I wouldn't be so snappy if you had pointed out why you didn't consider Belintar relevant instead of dismissing it and then go on to demand proof of swimmers who have defeated the Closing!
>I don't think a sample of
>one, where that one was pretty much a superhero, should be considered
>representative.
It is the exception that tests the rule. And he didn't become a hero until his apotheosization many years later.
Secondly Heroes are not people who have discovered some occult secret hidden from mortal man. They are primarily the _masters_ of secrets taught by _cultures_. King Heort's secret of the Starheart is taught to Orlanthi in the Second Son rites. The Red Goddess makes her secrets open to all. And so on. They _do_ transmit these secrets to their friends and subjects. If they didn't, they wouldn't be heroes, but Monsters and Enemies.
>I presumed (due to lack of evidence otherwise) that the
>closing prevented all cross-ocean travel. I think that is a more reasonable
>presumption than the opposite, given lack of explicit references. I'll admit
>now, I don't have access to Gloranthan reference material at work, which is
>where I read the digest.
"The Closing is the name of an event which swept the oceans clear of all surface shipping, and rendered subsequent navigation impossible". Glorantha Book p26.
Exceptions: The Luatha Boat, Xeotam the Madman (RQ Companion p9), Aringor Darstalsson (koS p164), Argrath (flies from Ygg's Isle to Luathela), JC 1249 (ToTRM#10 p8).
Trotsky:
Me>> _If_ the Closing affects swimmers and ships alike _and_ Belintar knew
the
>>secrets of negating the closing while swimming _then_ it follows that his
>>secrets would be effective in helping ships defeat the Closing, no? >>
> I don't see why that follows at all. It's entirely consistent with the
>premises that Belintar's technique works only if you are swimming and/or only
>affects approximately man-sized objects.
So using Belintar's secrets and sufficent endurance spells, you can swim to Pamaltela? Or use a canoe which is certainly man-sized?
>Furthermore, unlike Dormal's ritual,
>it might be something that only a powerful HeroQuester can do, making it less
>useful to the majority of people. It might even have been a one-use power
that
>he gained in his earlier life.
Which is something that needs to be demonstrated. It is insufficient to show that the proposition that the Closing affects only ships (my position) is wrong (as Philip claimed).
Joerg Baumgartner:
>There is the known effect that people have been unable to detect Brithos
>during the Closing (or afterwards).
Several people claim to have done so (see above for references).
>The Ban appears to be an extension of the Closing, at least with regard
>to its reaction on Dormal's arrival in Fronela.
It isn't. It _is_ similar in effect in that it inhibits communication but the same too can be said of the Cult of Silence.
>The fragment of the Waertagi novel in Missing Lands has telepathic
>contact between the Deri on the various "kaiums", i.e. anchored Waertagi
>city-ship complexes. It is quite ancient, though...
But the Deri do still exist. One of Dormal's companions is 'a castaway Deri half mad with lonliness' (sic) ML p 101. This piece is not quite so ancient.
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