adoptions and tribes

From: styopa_at_iname.com
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:30:57 -0600


Simon asserts:
>Steve Lieb :
>>I think (it's a complete guess) that *most* of the world's societies
>have
>>barriers to non native-born individuals holding high offices.
Simon:>
>I think you're almost certainly wrong. It's certainly not the case in
>Britain. There are no bars to people born as foreign nationals becoming
>prime minister. Nor are there bars to foreign nationals being made king
>or queen either. In fact it's a relatively frequent occurance.
>

Well, it *was* a guess as I said, but I'd argue that Anglo-descended governments (UK, USA, NZ, Aus, Canada, even somewhat India, and South Africa) are the exceptions to the rule. This is way, way outside the scope of this discussion, but historically something in the English tradition suggests a disproportionate respect for the rule of law as opposed to what might be called the Continental traditions. Let's start with the ones I know have barriers to non-native born nationals holding the highest office (in these cases I'm almost certainly right): Japan, China, Myanmar, Thailand, Bangladesh, Mongolia, Korea, Saudi, Iran, Afghan (I think), Turkey (not positive of that one), Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Germany (not sure, but Joerg can confirm this) Libya, Mexico, Brazil, Nicaragua, Cuba.
And this is a relatively enlightened time, where people are mobile and very cosmopolitan. Think about 500 years ago? In clan based or tribal societies? Heck there's a huge brew up in Germany today over opening their citizenship to people of non-German descent! In that respect my USA analogy was a poor one, but hey, I was thinking while typing.

And to try to drag this back on-topic for the digest, I'll retreat to the plainest defense: IMG, you CAN be adopted into (many, but not all) other tribes/clans. The process ranges from the severe (your life is on the line) to the simple (more like a bandit band than a tribe). If you join a tribe, you are rarely treated as an equal unless your joining was PRECEDED by some remarkable act for the tribe. Then you are usually treated as an equal. In any case your children ARE part of the tribe as equals, and can in that way sometimes outrank you as they attain majority. As far as tribal magic items (to reiterate) if you are accepted as a tribal member, you can use all but the most significant, which are usually restricted in some other way as well. To be a shaman of a tribe, you *have* to have had both parents be tribal members. As an adoptee you are usually banned from the highest seats, unless again, you performed some significant act for the tribe BEFORE becoming a member. Usullay however, you can usually still sit in tribal councils, etc, but only as a junior member of decision making bodies. In any case, it rarely comes up aside from marriages, in which case the wife (usually, but not always) is adopted into the husbands clan as a full member, while retaining her rights in her previous family's clan.  Frequently she doesn't become a FULL member of the husband's clan until she has a child. In the few matriarchal tribes, husbands are allowed to join their "new family" but are invariably subordinate members unless there are special circumstances (for example his daughter, upon becoming chief, typically makes her father a full member).

Your mileage may of course vary. If you don't like it, play it differently.

And Alex queries:
>Steve Lieb replies to person or persons unknown:
>> >>Neither can adopted members (usually) hold clan official seats.
>
>> >I don't think this is true. Wives (or husbands for matrilineal clans)
>> >get accepted into the clan with all rights and responsibilities, so
>> >why not adoptees? If they didn't trust him, they wouldn't have adopted
>> >him in the first place.
>
>> I don't think this is so odd - you can become a naturalized citizen of the
>> USA, but you still can't be president. Your descendant could.
>
>And how many similar examples can you come up with, either of officials
>in the United States, or of a parallel case elsewhere? The presidential
>thang is an ad hoc special case requirement, it doesn't correspond to
>any general principle, much less a distinguished class of 'citizen',
>so far as I'm aware.

Japan. China. Korea. Iran. Of the 4, 3 you can't even BECOME a citizen without special dispensation, much less hold the highest level of power once you would be a citizen.

End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #383

Powered by hypermail