Me>>> These [Pirate] communites are on the Isle of Alatan with its many
>>>bays and beaches.
>The assumption that pirates get so homesick that they must return to their
>favourite island.
I think it's quite plain that the Maniria writeup is describing Alatan as a _nation_ of pirates. They have kindred on that isle and younger brothers who want to go pirating with them when they grow up.
>I appreciate that there is now (1621) a pirate kingdom of Smelch on the
>Island of Alatan but saying that none of the fleet that sailed westwards
>to the Mournsea following defeat by the Quinpolic League even stayed in
>the New Coast region is ridiculous.
I said no such thing, Keith. What I pointed out was that the Pirate Fleet was _destroyed_ by the Holy Country after it fled east. Destroyed implies (to me at least) little or no survivors. Thus there would be very few pirates, if at all, to form a piratical tradition amongst the Nimistori. Furthermore in the aftermath of this battle:
"A treaty was made with Pasos to suppress all ships in the _Alatan_ area [My emphasis - PHM], which promptly transformed into a number of pirate communites rather than a single one" RQC p23.
So the pirates did not scatter throughout the Mournsea, they remained in and around Alatan (the two places are distinct as a look at the map would show).
>Your definition of pirates may be home
>loving, well organisied, loyal citizens of a pleasant pirate kingdom but
>my definition is of ruthless opportunists who sail the seas in search of
>plunder and find any port in Storm Season.
It may come as a big surprise to you but most pirates in Glorantha (Wolf Pirates, Tsankthi, Trowjangi amazons and Vadeli) and in the RW (Vikings, Wakos, Barbary Corsairs) have the support of a community with which they share their ill-gotten gains. IMO Alatan has a culture of pirates - therefore it is a major source of pirates in the region.
Me>> Wrongo. [Alatan] only ruled the Mournsea for about a year or two
>> at the most. Furthermore these fleets are something on the order of
>> fifty ships strong which means they do not have to recruit from servile
>> populations.
>I am "wrongo" in stating that Alatan ruled the ports of the Mournsea and
>then you immediately state that it DID rule the Mournsea for a year or two.
I did this because my refutation of your proposition - namely that Alatan recruited from subject populations - was spread over many sentences. Simply put, Alatan's rule was too _short_ to create a viable Greater Mournsea Co-prosperity Sphere IMO.
>At
>this point the seas had only been open since 1580, ie 5 years. So of the
>five years that the seas had been open Alatan had dominated New Coast for
>one or two of them. In which time they had converted coastal towns
>(presumably sleepy backwaters before the oceans opened) into ports, raided
>all nearby lands and pretty much taken over. Are you saying that Alatan
>alone provided all the manpower for it's 50 ship fleet?
I find it strange that Keith asks a question which implies that he thinks that Alatan is too small to provide enough manpower for 50 ships yet seems to think Alatan could conquer nations many times larger than itself and quickly organize the conquered communities into virtual clones of itself in only two years.
>>>The point is that people from Handra started ***sailing*** around the
>>>Mournsea, up the Nimistor river perhaps, and spread their new found
>>>Open Sea skills to everyone.
Me>> Why on earth would they need to sail _up_ the Nimistor?
>To raid, to trade, to explore. Sorry I forgot that Alatan pirates are
>home loving un adventurous types.
We are not talking about the Alatan pirates here, we are talking about _Handra_. Why should the Handrans need to sail up the Nimistori river to spread the Open Seas ritual there? The ritual is _useless_ for riverine traffic!
Me>> And the coast of Nimistor is part of the Newcoast cities which have
>>rejected the rule of interior lords
>Who are these people of the New Coast cities if they are not either
>pirates from Alatan, people seeking a new life at sea, adventurous types
>seeking escape from old ways.
People who are intent on trading and making money.
Me>> - the people at the mouth no longer _consider_ themselves part of the
>> Nimistori trader-principality. Secondly Handran fleets were suppressed
>> by the Holy Country.
>Handra must have been a city dominated by Alatan pirates for a year or
>two,
I see no reason why Handra "must" have been dominated by Alatan pirates. Alatan is a long way from Handra (Ramalia lies in between) and it was busy conquering the islands as it went along - this takes time and Alatan only had two years.
>then the Holy Country wants to suppress it's fleets;
The Holy Country attempted to suppress Handran fleets before Alatan started expanding. The evidence is that they have succeeded.
>perhaps a few brave Handrans break the naval blockade and take up
>smuggling or, worse still,piracy.
And a few piratical Handrans somehow means that the Nimistori are experienced pirates? You have nothing to suggest that Handra as a whole is involved in piratical activities. Most of the published material state that the two major pirates in the region are the Smelchi and the Wolf Pirates. A single source mentions Nimistor pirates yet this has been gregged by later sources which claims that Wolf Pirates were actually responsible.
>>>Why anyone would imagine the best way to spread a
>>>useful seafaring ritual would be to trudge overland is beyond me.
Me>> Nobody did. You did however try and claim Handra was part of Nimistor
>> as evidence of the great Nimistori sailing traditions. I was pointing
>> out that this was not so, hence the geographical arguments.
>*You* suggested trudging overland, and even went as far as describing the
>dangers involved in such a trek.
I did no such thing. I described the geography of the region to negate _your_ argument that Handra was part of Nimistor. You leapt in with a blatant strawman that I said that the Opening Secrets were spread by trudging overland.
>I do not believe dragonewts are a geographical argument.
They eat people they catch in the region. Hence it _is_ a geographical argument.
>I was claiming that the ships built at Handra soon spread Dormal's
>discovery around the mournsea, and at least 150km up the coast.
No you weren't. You were responding to a comment by Joerg that he didn't see how the Nimistor River could provide experienced sailors. You mentioned Handra as being "relatively near", and I was pointing out that this was a non-sequiter. Handra is a completely different place and is _not_ evidence of experienced sailors among the Nimistori.
>Your 'geographical arguments' strengthen my logic as the open seas
>would open up new easier/safer trade routes
Bastis is not a difficult place to travel through. I mentioned it to illustrate that Handra and Nimistor are not the same place.
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