I've been watching the GTA thread with interest, but haven't had time to
respond
until now; so as usual for me I'll pour it all out in one sitting. I've
had some time to
get over the amusement and annoyance I initially felt upon reading the
announcement,
so I'll try to keep the sarcasm to a minimum and write something
marginally constructive.
Let's start with some key parts of the announcement itself (note that I added numbering for clarity and brevity of comments)
> Dear Interested Friends of Glorantha:
>
> Initiate - Minimum Donation: $100
>
> 1. Access to special Internet events, like online author chats
Ok...we already had that, but maybe Issaries is thinking of something more formalized?
> 2. If you wish, your name listed in all printings of your choice of one
from among the next three Hero Wars supplement books to be published at
least 4 weeks after your donation.
This is a non-benefit that only appeals to munchkins (who think having
their name
printed in the book makes them special), but alright, some of the younger
fans
might still appreciate this gesture...
> 3. A gift copy of that book. If you wish to remain an anonymous
Initiate, you can have a gift copy of Hero Wars, the RPG.
First tangible benefit. Worth maybe $25-$30...
> 4. Charter Initiates will receive a free Glorantha Trading Association
t-shirt.
Second tangible benefit. Worth maybe $15-$20...
> 5. Perpetual 10% discount on Issaries Inc. products ordered through
Wizard's Attic.
Basically a wash...get a 10% discount (which other retailers may beat
anyway) by
locking yourself into using one vendor who can just price their product
10% higher
if the discount becomes "troublesome" for them.
> 6. Initiate-level access to online Glorantha and Hero Wars information
(such as selected Works in Progress).
These "levels" of access are straight out of L. Ron Hubbard's
Scientology. In any case,
let's be brutally honest: given that Issaries has not been able to
publish much in the way
of online content without the fans typing it in for them, this benefit
doesn't figure to
amount to much of a value.
> 7. Free entry to Annual Glorantha Trading Association Party.
Only applicable if one is already attending a convention, apparently.
> 8. May vote for annual "Best of Glorantha" awards.
This is even more of a "munchkin" pleaser...
Overall, Initiate is not too bad...you're only blowing about $50 here.
> Rune Master - Minimum Donation: $500
(I'll remove most of the redundant benefits)
> 2. Early shipping of a gift copy of that book, before retail copies are
shipped. This would be accompanied by a gift copy of the latest Hero Wars
supplement book, instead of the Initiate's gift.
Um, unspecified "early" shipments of product are not going to be that
attractive to a
fan base trained over the last 2 decades to wait patiently for months and
years to see
new products. What's a week or two worth?
> 3. Any other Issaries Inc. books, ordered from Wizards Attic at least
four weeks before printing, will also be sent before commercial copies
are shipped.
Ok, so that's 3 books and a T-shirt for $500 so far...
> 4. Perpetual 20% discount on Issaries Inc. products ordered through
Wizard's Attic.
Better than 10%, but still nothing to write home about...
> 6. Early admission to the Annual Glorantha Trading Association Party.
Ok, sure...amusement is starting to turn to muffled laughter at this point, but let's forge onward.
> 7. May nominate products for the annual "Best of Glorantha" awards.
Increasing stages of munchkin bait...
> 8. If you wish, at the time of donation Charter Rune Masters may ask
for a pre-beta copy of "King of Dragon Pass" computer game on CD.
This is actually not a bad thing, given the risk that this game may never
see the
light of day, but worthless to many.
Basically, though, it's still $500 for 3 books, a T-shirt, and a discount
that you'd
have to use for decades upon decades to actually see any value.
> Hero - Minimum Donation: $1500
> 2. Early shipping, before commercial copies are distributed, of a gift
copy of each Hero Wars core book whose first printing occurs at least 4
weeks after your donation. The first such book will be accompanied by a
gift copy of the next Hero Wars supplement book, instead of the Rune
Master's gifts.
The first on-going benefit of value, which makes this tier, at $1500 mind
you, the
only one that could actually be worth what the fan puts in...however, once
again,
this will only pay off if Issaries publishes for decades.
> 3. Charter Heroes will get autographed gift books so long as the author
works at Issaries Inc.
Not too bad for some collectors, but not worth any concrete value to
most. You can
get the books signed at a convention anyway.
> 4. By appointment, a one-on-one telephone call with Greg Stafford for
up to sixty minutes, which may be recorded but not published without
permission of Issaries Inc. Be a true insider!
Ok, now we're starting to really push the envelope...how long did everyone
at
Issaries sit around thinking up all these benefit lists that don't have
any actual value?
I can just imagine how these sessions went..."ooh, ooh, I've got one...how
about
free downloads of recordings of Greg talking in his sleep?". Did it ever
occur to
Issaries that customers might start getting offended by the condescending
nature of
most of these benefits?
> 5. Perpetual 30% discount on Issaries Inc. products ordered through
Wizard's Attic.
Ok, finally a reasonable discount level, but again, too high an entry cost.
> 6. Hero password access to online information, such as Advance Review
copies of pre-edited manuscripts for all Hero Wars book submissions. Be
part of the process!
Advance review of pre-edited works...(sigh)
> 7. A Free Skullbuster drink at Annual Glorantha Trading Association
Party.
This one is beyond condescending...it's incredibly insulting. Maybe if an
actual
trollkin served it...nah, still wouldn't be worth it
> Issaries Inc. Stock
>
> Please see our letter about the end of our original intention to offer
public stock. We cannot even offer stock to those not legally "qualified"
to be a stockholder in a
> privately-held corporation; this restricts offers and ownership to a
few sophisticated and well-funded people or investment firms.
Given that Issaries wanted to sell stock with a (very small) chance of
potential yields
for investors, I find it amazing that the GTA does not offer "investment"
opportunities
that might actually work, like 1 free supplement per year for Initiates,
free core books
forever for Rune Masters, and free copies of every single publication
Issaries prints for
Heroes. Even at such levels, the "donations" are a big risk. However,
if, as Issaries
claims, a whole new customer base will be acquired by the new game, then
Issaries
would have nothing to fear in these proposed terms.
BTW, I note with some added amusement that after failing the stock option
route,
Issaries went with a membership/association model that mirrors the one I
proposed
to Rob Heinsoo last year when I tried to tell him about my plans for a
RQ2 Preservation Society. The main difference being that while my model
was
non-profit and offered a guaranteed 1 100+ page scenario/campaign pack
for only
$20-$30 a year (with dues going towards publishing additional materials
voted upon
from a members' "submission farm"), Issaries' model requires lump sum
payments
up front with not even a hint of a guarantee about what happens to the
money if the
"business plan that's 3 times more ambitious than we've ever been able to
achieve"
fails to come to fruition.
> Annual Glorantha Trading Association Party
>
> This will be held at official Gloranthan Conventions, or other
conventions as circumstances require. Entry will be limited to Initiates
and above, plus a few paying
> Observers and guests. The main purpose is to have a chance for
Glorantha Trading Association participants to meet the staff and
officials of Issaries Inc., and to pre-release any news or gossip to members.
Hmmm,.so basically, observers and guests can get into the party too (at a quite reasonable fee of a few bucks, too, I'm certain). Remind me again exactly why this whole party thing is supposed to be worth something?
> Hey, isn't this really a way to get money?
>
> Yes, of course it is. But as all Orlanthi know, gifts are good and
worthy.
This statement and the accompanying link to Orlanthi "family values" are piling it on a little thick, don't you think?
> Issaries needs at least $50,000 to begin publishing and distributing
its first six books. Editors and artists need to be signed on now to make
an autumn deadline.
> Nothing will be released until the first retail set is ready.
Since most of Issaries' hard-core fans are tuned in to the digest either
directly
or in-directly, the fact that they've got <$10K in "donations" so far
must be
sinking in (God, I hope so). I sincerely doubt this effort will break
the
half-way mark. What happens to the already invested money then?
> You are our primary source of funding. If everyone who requested
information became just an Initiate we would be on schedule. Of course,
that is unlikely, and so
> we urge you who can be Rune Masters or Heroes to do what you can to
make Gloranthan gaming once again a part of your entertainment pleasure.
Donations over the minimums are especially honorable.
Ugh. Ok, here comes the falling-on-the-floor-funny stuff...
> The Fine Print
>
> Glorantha, Hero Wars, Glorantha Trading Association (GTA) and King of
Dragon Pass are copyrighted and trademarked by their respective owners. GTA
> donations are wholly voluntary but must be in U.S. funds payable to
"Issaries, Inc." and are not refundable. If you wish to donate by credit
card, Issaries Inc. will
> have to add a five percent processing charge; the charge will be
processed by Wizard's Attic. GTA memberships are not transferable and
must be in the name of a
Not only is this utterly outrageous given that Issaries is basically
begging
for these donations, it may not even be possible under their agreements
with
the credit card companies, who generally frown (via stiff fines, I might
add)
on merchants passing along costs to customers. BTW, since Issaries and
the
GTA are not non-profit, the term "donations" is only figurative...
>From http://www.visa.com/cgi-bin/vee/ut/faq/main.html :
"Are Visa merchants permitted to establish minimum or
maximum transaction amounts? Are they permitted to
charge me extra for using my Visa card?
In general, these actions are not permitted under
the Visa
regulations that all merchants must follow. These
regulations
are enforced through Visa member financial
institutions. If
you've had a problem with a specific merchant, please
contact the financial institution that issued your
Visa card.
Your financial institution knows the regulations,
and they
can file a complaint regarding the merchant. You'll
find their
telephone number on your Visa statement."
> natural person, to be named when the donation is made. Wizard's Attic
discounts cannot be combined with any other offers, and are limited to
Issaries Inc. retail
Naturally, this is why the 10% discount is futile.
> publications. GTA t-shirts will be provided in size XL unless another
size is indicated when the donation is made; sizes other than M, L or XL
may be available at
>extra charge. "King of Dragon Pass" game items require personal signed
agreements with A Sharp. Each Hero's phone call with Greg Stafford must
be scheduled in
Extra charge for T-shirt sizes...is Issaries not willing to absorb any costs
associated with collecting all this money at all? Sign NDAs to get your
game
CD or online "information"? Surreal. I guess I have to expect that
coming
from someone who copyrights even the Q&A answers on his webpage.
> advance; it must occur within 18 months of joining the Association; it
may be recorded but without reproduction rights; and Issaries Inc. may
put a transcript or
> summary online. Issaries Inc. may require non-disclosure agreements for
Rune Master and Hero access to online information. Charter Memberships
are only
Tell you what, maybe I'd throw in $1500 if Greg were forced to sit and
listen
to me talk for an hour explaining to him why this plan is so
ludicrous...Issaries
retains rights to the "session" with Greg, but the person that paid for
the session doesn't?
> available for a short time and GTA benefits for later members will
differ. Benefits of the Glorantha Trading Association may be revised if
the Gods of Glorantha see
This is the crowning glory. A vague and global disclaimer that releases
Issaries from
having to produce anything at all. Technically, the $7700 Issaries has
already
collected is theirs, free-and-clear.
In summary, my feeling about this whole announcement and Issaries' recent
actions
is: "The Emperor has no clothes". Surely even on the loyal-to-the-core
digest
there must be many who were less than happy about this announcement
and/or its terms.
Speak up! Issaries is only going to suffer in the long-term if they
continue down
this delusional path. A little cold water in the face is needed, and
quickly. Honestly,
I wish Issaries to be successful and to publish lots of Glorantha
products for as long
as possible, but I see little hope here...
Ok, let's move to the digest responses to the announcement:
> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:59:39 GMT
> From: Alex Ferguson <abf_at_yeats.ucc.ie>
> Subject: Re: Announcement: Glorantha Trading Association
>
> David Dunham forwards the Words of Greg:
> > After less than 24 hours, we've already received pledges from three
Heroes
> > and seven Initiates.
>
> Yes, I felt that RuneMaster Membership was extremely sub-optimal, too!
> It seems that ten paying customers agree with me... ;-)
You're too nice, Alex. The reason I quoted you here is that if the
staunchest
of the staunch are none too thrilled with these terms, then try to
imagine a
fence-sitter's reaction to this announcement...
> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:56:39 -0000
> From: "Hibbs, Philip" <philip.hibbs_at_tnt.co.uk>
> Subject: RE: Glorantha Trading Association
>
> Jane Sez:
> >I'm going to take a lot of convincing to hand over that sort of
> >amount in any case, but this sort of attitude really doesn't help!
>
> That's right, basically they're saying "Please give us loads of money, and
> we'll make a pitiful token gesture of thanks, oh, and please have a hard
> time doing it if you're not American". Not that this means that I'm not
> going to join, that is, it isn't much more than a healthy Spare Grain Fund
> donation, but it's a right pain in the arse.
So Philip will join, apparently in spite of the various shortcomings...again,
another hard-core fan who is less than enchanted. I don't want to repeat
what
various reactions among my players were when they read the announcement...
> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:12:13 -0800
> From: Eric Rowe <rowe_at_chaosium.com>
> Subject: Re: GTA
>
> >In addition, am I right in thinking that we're expected to shell out $105
> >(paying by plastic) for essentially one game retailing for about $30?
> >Bit different from the originally mooted 3 games I believe...
> >Anyway, 'nuff said
> >Ash
>
> Nope, not right.
Remember this defensive and confrontational comment, I'll get back to it later...
> The original stock deal in terms of just product benefits would have
> gotten you 3 books over three years for $100. The new association
> gets you a book, and t-shirt, and a 10% discount, which over three
> years should be a considerably better deal, and it keeps going just
> like the stock would have.
This rides on the fact that the 10% discount will be worth the donation's
value
in 3 years with a schedule of 30 publications. I really doubt that even
Issaries'
own employees truly believe, in their heart-of-hearts, that they can meet
this schedule.
Also, as you yourself will point out later on in this post, the 10%
discount is less
than the discounts fans are likely to enjoy with other retailers...
> Note that I still think it would have been nice if Issaries Inc.
> could have found some legal way to issue stock to fundraise, but
> the US just really doesn't want that to happen.
The US has laws in place to protect investors from shady and/or highly
risky schemes
and ventures. Sad to say, I think the GTA eminently qualifies as the latter.
> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:07:02 EST
> From: <TTrotsky_at_aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Glorantha Trading Association
>
> Sergio:
>
> << - - I also suppose that the Annual GTA Party is going to take place
in the
> USA. Can you offer special parties in Europe or in Australia? Also
could you
> provide a 'virtual participation' in the party for members that cannot
atend-
> it in person? >>
>
> I asked Greg this question myself. His response was "I'm not going to
> miss out on any chances for a party! If people are willing to invite me to
> Convulsion, or to Germany or France, I'm happy to hold as many annual
parties
> as I can in a year".
Since the price of having a convention "invite" Greg overseas is probably
greater
than the cost of the entire party, I'm not surprised...
> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:17:54 -0800
> From: David Dunham <dunham_at_pensee.com>
> Subject: Re: GTA
>
> Ashley Munday
>
> > am I right in thinking that we're expected to shell out $105
> > (paying by plastic) for essentially one game retailing for about $30?
>
> Phil Hibbs
>
> > That's right, basically they're saying "Please give us loads of
money, and
> > we'll make a pitiful token gesture of thanks, oh, and please have a hard
> > time doing it if you're not American".
>
> What we tried to do, in the fact of the illegality of the original plan*,
> was come up with a way that the fans can help bring more Gloranthan
> products to market. (Many of us fans have of course created our own
> products, but most game stores will never carry them, and the number of
> Glorantha fans won't increase.)
>
> The GTA isn't some sort of discount club, or a subscription plan. It's a
> way that Issaries, Inc. can recognize its patrons of the arts. When the
> games hit the stores, future development will be funded by actual revenue.
Playing this "patrons of the arts" card is smart, but unethical.
Issaries is a business
venture, that's the bottom line. Nobody would invest in its business
plan, so Issaries
turned to their fans, rightly assuming that many fans would be willing to
fork over
some money to try and see their game world restored to glory. Let's
admit what
everyone knows...the primary reason Issaries was split into its own company
was to
insulate everyone (but the loyal fans) from the highly risky strategy
you're undertaking.
Ashley Munday:
> Anyway, let's talk simple economics here... 10% discount would mean I'd
have
> to blow about $700 on Issaries stuff through Wizard's attic. At a rough,
> back of a fag packet calculation that's about the amount I've spent on RQ
> stuff since I started playing in 1981.
It is incredible to me that Issaries will come out and say that they need
help just to get
started, are positive that they can go forward based on new customers,
but are unwilling to
risk the continued revenue stream from the people who are funding their
entire plan.
> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:34:17 EST
> From: <TTrotsky_at_aol.com>
> Subject: Re: GTA
>
> Ashley:
>
> << Anyway, let's talk simple economics here... 10% discount would mean I'd
> have
> to blow about $700 on Issaries stuff through Wizard's attic. At a
rough, back
> of a fag packet calculation that's about the amount I've spent on RQ stuff
> since I started playing in 1981.
>
> So, as you may gather, 3 books over three years seems a far better
deal to
> the (obviously insane / old fart) likes of me. >>
>
> Depends how many Issaries books you were intending to buy. You get one
> free book anyway, so you'd have to buy a further 20 to get the same deal
> financially (ignoring the t-shirt and non-economic benefits). The plan
is for
> Issaries to bring out something like 30 books in the first three years,
so if
> you bought the lot, this is indeed a relative saving. Or it would be if you
> were American, I'm less sure how much the benefit is for Europeans. And
if you
> intend to buy everything Issaries publishes. And if they keep to their
> schedule. But that'll be the reasoning they're using to say its a good
deal..
When you read the publication schedule, the estimates of what it will
take to
fund the next round, etc. you start to get a feel for how impossible this
will be.
How does Issaries expect to land 5,000 new customers when they've
basically
admitted that they won't have much money for advertising?
Eric Rowe responding to interested international party:
> >It might cost Issaries more and be harder to administer, but maybe instead
> >of a direct-order discount, they could offer a retail rebate? For
example: I
> >buy a product at my local shop, I send proof-of-purchase to Issaries, they
> >put some credit in my account at Wizard's Attic, I get to use that
credit to
> >buy or at least subsidize the occassional product that my local merchant
> >doesn't have.
>
> These are good points and common beliefs in the game/book trade, but
> frankly don't exist in reality.
Ok, this comment, along with the one above, are not conducive to your
cause.
You might want to avoid the appearance of snapping at the hand that feeds
you.
I, as an outraged fan, may be able to be so blunt, but you, as a
representative of
Issaries, don't get to be. It's not fair, but it's good business.
> You and your friends will be able to get Issaries Inc. books from
> Amazon or elswhere at a 20 or even 30% discount, just like they can
> get Chaosium books and some games (as well as TSR/White Wolf/etc)
> now. Why whould a 10% discount somewhere else change anything? We have
> had retailers complain in the past about mail-order, direct sales, or
> discounts of various kinds as have other companies. When we have
> catered to the retailers, we have lost money. This goes for all game
> companies I have dealt with.
You refute everything you said in your previous posts about the perceived value of the GTA donation plans in the preceding paragraph.
> Given Chaosium's length in business, it may trip and falter a lot,
> but it's long-term strategy certainly worked.
Everything's relative, I guess, but I'd say that something like WotC
"worked".
I'd say Chaosium "managed to survive". Sad state of affairs, maybe, but...
> Eric Rowe
> Wizard's Attic
Let me finish here by re-iterating that I really do wish Issaries all the
luck in the world and
much success in the publication of Glorantha materials. Unfortunately, I
feel that you're
going to need plenty of it. I'll be buying publications, assuming a high
standard that lives
up to past publications, but I won't be "donating" to the GTA. I'm
guessing Issaries will not
be too shaken up by that statement, but I urge Issaries and everyone
who's thinking of
putting their money into it to give a few moments of serious
consideration to what I'm saying,
because I wouldn't be bothering to spend this much time collecting and
going over this stuff
if I was merely trying to vent frustrations. Sorry for the length...
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #448
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