JR>>> If you add that the founder of a society can stay around to guide
>>> its development,for centuries.
Me>> But in the case of the Arkati, we know that this is not so.
>We know that the Arkati societies are claimed to have formed at the end
>of Paslac's Empire to preserve the knowledge of the Arkati, and we know
>that a good part of them have been in existence since 1050 when the
>Three Rivals ousted the God Learner ruling body from Ralios.
What relevance has this to the founder (Arkat) remaining for centuries to guide the cult's development? The Three Rivals do not stick around for very long for as early as next century, Safelster becomes unified under Jorst.
>> But the Arkati are fighting against each other. So if they are
>> controlling other organizations (not necessarily secret) then
>> they would be using these organizations against each other.
>Not all Arkati are fighting against each other. Do the words Old Arkat
>Kult Alliance mean anything to you? They are a group of _different_
>Arkati societies recognizing the _similarities_ in their traditions,
>cooperating while retaining their individual secrets (heroic guides).
The Old Arkat Kult Alliance are prominent in Azilos where Count Folyafine is attempting to become Dark Emperor. But the OAKA does not support any current claimants which means that they do not recognize the similarities in Foyalfine's crusade. Hence they are an Arkati society that fights other Arkati.
>> But the Arkati and Religious Secret Societies are after people's
>> hearts. It's nigh impossible for them to devoutly manifest two
>> such loyalties. That is what I find disturbing about your notion
>> that people would consider joining two or more secret societies.
>This is the same argument which says that the various Orlanthi cults are
>after their initiates' souls, so if you are an Orlanth initiate, you
>can't be initiated to Issaries or you don't know where you go in your
>afterlife. Well, that notion is sort of outdated...
Wonderful. We are not talking about Orlanthi, are we? We are talking about Arkati Cults which _are_ stated to be "exclusive of each other" (Genertela Book p66).
>This sort of
>development is happening in Otkorion, with its hybridisation of (Lankst)
>Orlanth worship and Otkorioni Arkatism/Henotheist Malkionism.
The Henotheist Church is Arkati? I don't think so. Rather the Henotheists are an incorporation of Malkionism and Orlanthi worship.
>> The question is why do I want to join a society which is illegal
>> and/or immoral to join?
>Because I expect to profit somehow from the membership.
And this differs from a legitimate society in what way?
>Besides, "illegal and/or immoral" is way too strong a term (aka
>strawman). Membership in the Ancient Beasts Society is inopportune
>towards the powerful, neither illegal nor immoral.
Which is explicitly stated in its description "The societies are usually not persecuted, and hence not very secret...". But the Chaos Monks, the Galvosti and the Borists are illegal and/or immoral in most people's eyes so it is not a strawman to say so.
>> If it is not illegal and/or immoral, why is the society concealing its
>> existance or its membership?
>Because it is inopportune to the powerful.
But in many cases, people are positing that the members of these societies are the powerful people. Why do they _still_ conceal their existance or membership in such a case?
>> Merely theorizing that they do it because it's the in-thing, misses
>> the point IMO.
>The point is that these societies are the one outlet for Safelstran
>citizens to participate in any self-governed way in their affairs.
Not so. One can become active in legitimate societies and joining a secret society means you have to take orders from a superior or adhere to some arcane discipline - hardly what I consider to be self-governance.
Danny Bourne:
>I don't think that being a secret society means ipso facto that they're
>immoral and/or illegal. Would RW secret governmental organisations count
>as immoral?
Yup.
>Does Black Fang count as being a secret society?
Yup.
>The Delta Green
>supplement for CoC gives a perfectly valid reason for being a member of a
>secret society once you know it exists, they could also call themselves
>secret socities but really be elitist clubs that do bugger.
And Delta Green is illegal. 'nuff said.
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