And made Steve Lieb associate...
> Hehehe. I was paging down
What do you mean, paging down??? ;-)
> and saw this go by and thought "Oh great, we're
> back on the GTA thread."
Funny. It wasn't even me who made the comparison.
Peter Metcalfe
>>We know that the Arkati societies are claimed to have formed at the >>end of Paslac's Empire to preserve the knowledge of the Arkati, and >>we know that a good part of them have been in existence since 1050 >>when the Three Rivals ousted the God Learner ruling body from Ralios.
> What relevance has this to the founder (Arkat) remaining for
> centuries to guide the cult's development?
Read what I said. I don't claim that Arkat was handy all the time, especially not during the God Learner reign in Ralios. At best, he'd be as present as in Erengazor's "Proven Appearance Movement", which is: rumored to be.
> The Three Rivals do not stick around
> for very long for as early as next century, Safelster becomes unified
> under Jorst.
Perfectly true - they seem to have been little more than heroic raiders,
the Ralian version of Jaldon for westward raids. I'm aware of the history of Ralios, I wrote the article for the Rise of Ralios guidebook.
Jorst did not leave any monolithic religion behind, although his kingdom
appears to have had a brand of henotheist Malkionism as the general idea
behind it.
>>Not all Arkati are fighting against each other. Do the words Old Arkat
>>Kult Alliance mean anything to you? They are a group of _different_ >>Arkati societies recognizing the _similarities_ in their traditions, >>cooperating while retaining their individual secrets (heroic guides).
> The Old Arkat Kult Alliance are prominent in Azilos where Count
> Folyafine is attempting to become Dark Emperor.
It is also prominent in Sentanos and Tortun where Lady Erengazor attempts to prove the appearance of Arkat, and in the lands on the western shore.
(Does anyone have an idea why "Kult" is written in German/Scandinavian?)
> But the OAKA does not support any current claimants which means
> that they do not recognize the similarities in Foyalfine's crusade.
> Hence they are an Arkati society that fights other Arkati.
Foyalfine is not said _anywhere_ to be a member of the OAKA. Definitely not in Genertela Book. In HtWW1 he was the leader of the Henotheist Church of Azilos, and this was taken over for Rise of Ralios. Subsequent
publications in Tradetalk built up on RoR, so I fail to see how you made
this explicit connection.
>>This is the same argument which says that the various Orlanthi >>cults are after their initiates' souls, [...] >>Well, that notion is sort of outdated...
> Wonderful. We are not talking about Orlanthi, are we?
No. We are talking Ralian secret societies, only part of which are Arkati.
> We are talking about Arkati Cults which _are_ stated to be
> "exclusive of each other" (Genertela Book p66).
Yes. And if you are emulating Arkat in any way, you will have joined and
"betrayed" several of them on your way to acculate personal power...
>>This sort of development is happening in Otkorion, with its >>hybridisation of (Lankst) Orlanth worship and Otkorioni >>Arkatism/Henotheist Malkionism.
> The Henotheist Church is Arkati? I don't think so.
Unlike the Heortland brand (IMO, but see also Nikk Effingham's webpages)
it is _Stygian_. It is not a variation of an Arkat hero cult, no, but it
does have Arkat at its roots.
> Rather the Henotheists are an incorporation of Malkionism and
> Orlanthi worship.
Or whatever other local religion there is (e.g. Galanin) - at least we ought to keep in mind that Ralian Orlanthi have been isolated from Pelorian and Manirian Orlanthi for (2) ages, and have fairly different ideas on a couple of items.
>>> The question is why do I want to join a society which is illegal >>> and/or immoral to join?
>>Because I expect to profit somehow from the membership.
> And this differs from a legitimate society in what way?
In the higher expectation of benefits. The lure is the promise of unknown secrets; this has a similar stimulation as has playing the lottery.
>>Besides, "illegal and/or immoral" is way too strong a term (aka >>strawman). Membership in the Ancient Beasts Society is inopportune >>towards the powerful, neither illegal nor immoral.
> Which is explicitly stated in its description "The societies are
> usually not persecuted, and hence not very secret...". But the
> Chaos Monks, the Galvosti and the Borists are illegal and/or
> immoral in most people's eyes so it is not a strawman to say so.
The Galvosti appear to be the state religion of Holut, and to have been in Tinaros and parts of Otkorion as well. The Boristi are persecuted outside of Borin, but tolerated inside. By this definition, followers of
the Loskalmi Hrestolism would be members of a secret society in Tanisor.
The Chaos Monks are persecuted everywhere (I hope). You see, there are degrees of persecution any single secret society faces, from scrutiny by
the government's agents to active man-hunts.
>>> If it is not illegal and/or immoral, why is the society concealing >>> its existance or its membership?
>>Because it is inopportune to the powerful.
> But in many cases, people are positing that the members of these
> societies are the powerful people. Why do they _still_ conceal
> their existance or membership in such a case?
You see what happens when they don't in the case of Darmangon of Borin.
Also, there is the matter of hierarchy. Even the powerful outside aren't
necessarily supreme in the secret society of their choice. It looks bad outwardly to admit one is taking orders from others.
>>The point is that these societies are the one outlet for Safelstran >>citizens to participate in any self-governed way in their affairs.
> Not so. One can become active in legitimate societies and joining
> a secret society means you have to take orders from a superior or
> adhere to some arcane discipline - hardly what I consider to be
> self-governance.
Ok, Peter, then please name the interesting legitimate societies of Ralios which don't have you take orders from superiors, participate in rites, etc.
People join the secret societies in the hope of sidestepping existing hierarchies by rising in another hierarchy. For many, this remains a hope, but for a few people this is a real way to power.
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