Me>> What relevance has this to the founder (Arkat) remaining for
>> centuries to guide the cult's development?
>Read what I said.
Read what _I_ said first! I was talking about _Arkat_. What you wrote before was simply irrelevant to my point. I have neither the time or patience to deal with every single digression of yours.
>> The Old Arkat Kult Alliance are prominent in Azilos where Count
>> Folyafine is attempting to become Dark Emperor.
>It is also prominent in Sentanos and Tortun where Lady Erengazor
>attempts to prove the appearance of Arkat, and in the lands on the
>western shore.
It is not prominent in Sentanos. It is present in Torton which is a much smaller portion of Sentanos. As for the 'western shores', only Azilos qualifies (Uton is not even coastal).
>> But the OAKA does not support any current claimants which means
>> that they do not recognize the similarities in Foyalfine's crusade.
>> Hence they are an Arkati society that fights other Arkati.
>Foyalfine is not said _anywhere_ to be a member of the OAKA.
Yes I believe I just said that, did I not? What on earth does "[They] don't support [...] Folyalfine's crusade" mean otherwise?
>In HtWW1 he was the leader of the Henotheist Church of Azilos
I reject the notion that Azilos has a Henotheist Church. It's too confusing given that we already have a major henotheist church elsewhere.
>[...] so I fail to see how you made this explicit connection.
Gosh. I didn't think I needed to spell this out. Foyalfine is Count of Azilos who wants to be the next Autarch of Stygia. The OAKA are to be found in Azilos yet do not support him. Therefore it seems that Foyalfine and the OAKA are at war with one another?
[Joerg counters my statement that Ralians do not join two or more secret societies with a paragraph on the Orlanthi]
>> Wonderful. We are not talking about Orlanthi, are we?
>No. We are talking Ralian secret societies, only part of which are
>Arkati.
Then why bring up the Orlanthi then? What was the relevancy of it?
>> We are talking about Arkati Cults which _are_ stated to be
>> "exclusive of each other" (Genertela Book p66).
>Yes. And if you are emulating Arkat in any way, you will have joined
>and "betrayed" several of them on your way to acculate personal power...
>> The Henotheist Church is Arkati? I don't think so.
>Unlike the Heortland brand (IMO, but see also Nikk Effingham's webpages)
>it is _Stygian_. It is not a variation of an Arkat hero cult, no, but it
>does have Arkat at its roots.
I do not believe that it is Stygian nor that it has Arkat at its roots. In the decription of minor religions of ralios we are given the Henotheist Church and then the many Arkat Cults.
>> Rather the Henotheists are an incorporation of Malkionism and
>> Orlanthi worship.
>Or whatever other local religion there is (e.g. Galanin) - at least we
>ought to keep in mind that Ralian Orlanthi have been isolated from
>Pelorian and Manirian Orlanthi for (2) ages, and have fairly different
>ideas on a couple of items.
Alakoring came from Ralios (Lankst, I've heard) at the end of the last age. But I think the name Henotheist should be confined to Otkorion.
[On the question of why people join secret societies, Joerg posited that profit from membership was a major reason.]
>> And this differs from a legitimate society in what way?
>In the higher expectation of benefits. The lure is the promise of
>unknown secrets; this has a similar stimulation as has playing the
>lottery.
Virtually every religion has unknown secrets. You still haven't identified a valid reason why people would grativate to the secretive OAKA and not the fully legitimate Church of Arkat the Savior just down the road.
[I said secret societies were "illegal and/or immoral". Joerg said I was strawmanning].
>> But the
>> Chaos Monks, the Galvosti and the Borists are illegal and/or
>> immoral in most people's eyes so it is not a strawman to say so.
>The Galvosti appear to be the state religion of Holut, and to have been
>in Tinaros and parts of Otkorion as well. The Boristi are persecuted
>outside of Borin, but tolerated inside.
And this makes them not illegal and immoral in most people's eyes in what way?
>By this definition, followers of
>the Loskalmi Hrestolism would be members of a secret society in Tanisor.
Yes and?
>You see, there are
>degrees of persecution any single secret society faces, from scrutiny by
>the government's agents to active man-hunts.
And the point of this is what? You claimed that I was strawmanning when I said that secret societies were illegal and/or immoral. How does 'degrees of persecution' refute this?
[I asked why secret societies conceal their existance because they are not "illegal and/or immoral". Joerg responded that it is 'inopportune' to the powerful.]
>> But in many cases, people are positing that the members of these
>> societies are the powerful people. Why do they _still_ conceal
>> their existance or membership in such a case?
>You see what happens when they don't in the case of Darmangon of Borin.
Who announced his membership in an immoral religion? But that doesn't answer the question of why the OAKA or the Argan Argar Chain conceal their own existance even in places where worship of Argan Argar or Arkat is legitimate.
>Also, there is the matter of hierarchy. Even the powerful outside aren't
>necessarily supreme in the secret society of their choice. It looks bad
>outwardly to admit one is taking orders from others.
Well diddums to them. Why don't the powerful inside announce their presence if they have nothing to hide?
>>>The point is that these societies are the one outlet for Safelstran
>>>citizens to participate in any self-governed way in their affairs.
>> Not so. One can become active in legitimate societies and joining
>> a secret society means you have to take orders from a superior or
>> adhere to some arcane discipline - hardly what I consider to be
>> self-governance.
>Ok, Peter, then please name the interesting legitimate societies of
>Ralios which don't have you take orders from superiors, participate in
>rites, etc.
Read it again, I didn't what you think I said. I said there is no difference between a legitimate society and a secret society in the manner that you claimed. Both have equal chances of allowing you to become bigwigs in the society.
>People join the secret societies in the hope of sidestepping existing
>hierarchies by rising in another hierarchy.
Nonsense. Very few Safelstrans join the OAKA with the hope of becoming Autarch of Stygia. What should be answered is what the secret society explicitly offers its members and why it feels it must remain a secret, not vague blitherings about ralian social dynamics in general.
For example.
Good: The Borists offer its cultists a life without sin. It conceals its existance because its methods arouse digust in others.
Bad: The Borists offer a chance for the oppressed townsman a chance at real power by allowing him to dominate chaos monsters. He conceals his membership because the powerful might be upset.
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