Sentanos is not just a city, but also the overstate for Tortun, therefore the mention.
> As for the 'western shores',
> only Azilos qualifies (Uton is not even coastal).
We have no "official" material on Tinaros (a chaos waste with 200,000 human inhabitants??? Hardly.), Tarasdal, or Kustria (where we do have quite a bit of published material). It appears likely that the lands between the three named centers of activity will have some continuity between the known places.
> I reject the notion that Azilos has a Henotheist Church. It's
> too confusing given that we already have a major henotheist
> church elsewhere.
I don't accept that reasoning, unless you mean that there is a Stygian Church of Azilos with "Stygian" not in the sense of "Darkness-related", but "Arkat-related". The term Henotheist is not exactly reserved to Orlanth-worship with Malkionism...
We have all kinds of henotheist churches in Safelster. It is the common theme there - henotheism vs. One-Truth-Rokarism. Look at Estal with its earth cult cum Malkionism, reminiscent of pre-Rightness Seshnela. Look at Stygian Naskorion. Look anywhere.
> Foyalfine
> is Count of Azilos who wants to be the next Autarch of Stygia.
> The OAKA are to be found in Azilos yet do not support him.
> Therefore it seems that Foyalfine and the OAKA are at war with
> one another?
It appears that Foyalfine's warlike efforts are directed against his other neighbours, but in the end towards Tanisor. The OAKA of Azilos don't support his claim to be the (sole) heir of Arkat, but they do support his activities to counter Seshnegi ambition. Foyalfine's ancestors lost against Bailifes the Hammer, and Foyalfine wants to get even.
[I brought up the Orlanthi parallel to illustrate that many references to the "exclusive nature" of theist cults turn out to be quite meaningless, and not painting an accurate picture of Glorantha, when Peter claimed that it was impossible to join two different secret societies, on principle, even when no Arkati sect is involved. I disagree with this sweeping statement.]
> Then why bring up the Orlanthi then? What was the relevancy of it?
An illustration how easy a sweeping statement like the one against secret societies leads to wrong conclusions by readers.
The relevancy for Ralios is that the northern and eastern Safelstran states are heavily influenced by Orlanthi customs and predilections (or else the cult of Siglolf Cloudcrusher would fail to impact Sentanos).
Since the Orlanthi worldview is very pantheistic, there is bound to be a
carry-over into Safelstran mentality.
But since this is one of the dreaded digressions of mine, don't feel obliged to reply.
> 1) Arkat was a fanatic in every cult that he joined. He was not
> a member of two or more such cults at the same time that you
> and Jose suggest.
Arkat was a member of Orlanth, and as such of Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, etc. in the Ralian (Theyalan Council-influenced) Orlanthi fashion.
And just to point it out again, I don't advocate multiple Arkati sect membership.
> 2) What on earth is "betrayed" doing in quotes?
I put "betrayed" into quotes because I think that entering other Arkati sects in order to plunder their secrets for your own is a standard way of sect warfare. And until the nature of Arkati not-quite-illumination is clear, it appears to me that the "vile illuminate technique" of joining mutually incompatible cults should be an available though highly
immoral technique for the Arkati sects - this gives them very much the same dilemma Arkat faced.
> 3) The Arkati are not in it for accumulating "personal power", there
> is a deep spiritual dimension to their antics.
Arkati membership is a way to personal spiritual power, much as guild membership is a way to professional influence, etc. "Power" may have been a poor choice of vocabulary, but "advancement" sounds clunky.
Henotheist Church:
> I do not believe that it is Stygian nor that it has Arkat at
> its roots.
Then pray tell what is at its roots? Do you regard it as an invention out of the blue, or does it have a long history?
The Henotheist Church of Otkorion is the only major Malkioni church of Ralios powerful in more than one county besides the Rokari. If it doesn't follow the scheme of the Stygian Church as faintly outlined in GoG, who in Ralios does follow that scheme?
> In the decription of minor religions of ralios
> we are given the Henotheist Church and then the many Arkat
> Cults.
Yes. This is the information David Hall, Nick Brooke and their discussion partners used when the background for How the West Was One was prepared. Only part of that discussion occurred on the RQ-Dailies.
> But I think the name Henotheist should be confined to Otkorion.
Why?
> [On the question of why people join secret societies, Joerg posited
> that profit from membership was a major reason.]
> Virtually every religion has unknown secrets. You still haven't
> identified a valid reason why people would grativate to the
> secretive OAKA and not the fully legitimate Church of Arkat the
> Savior just down the road.
Who says that churches like Arkat the Savior's are not part of the Old Arkat Kult Alliance?
One aspect in which Safelster is similar to Renaissance Europe is its constant state of Reformation troubles. After Vikkard lost control of Ralios, various state churches re-established themselves once more (as they had done after the heirs of Bailifes lost control, before Ulianus III). Certain other movements returned from hiding, or preferred to remain out of public scrutiny, not trusting the stability of the situation. IMO Renaissance Europe in the region where Protestant groups and Catholics remained in contact parallels this conflict very well, be it Britain or the German Empire. Lacking another America/Jrustela for their Mennonite/Borist or Quaker/OAKA cultists to flee to, the conflicts
remain at the home front. Azilos Stygians/Calvinists and Otkorion Henotheists/Lutherans, with Seshnegi Rokari/Catholics and other colorful
groups tossed in.
> [I said secret societies were "illegal and/or immoral". Joerg
> said I was strawmanning].
>>The Galvosti appear to be the state religion of Holut, and to >>have been in Tinaros and parts of Otkorion as well. The Boristi >>are persecuted outside of Borin, but tolerated inside.
> And this makes them not illegal and immoral in most people's eyes
> in what way?
A state religion is hardly illegal in the state in question, is it? I might as well claim that US death penalty was illegal, or that marital sex was immoral.
>>By this definition, followers of the Loskalmi Hrestolism would be >>members of a secret society in Tanisor.
> Yes and?
Yes and what keeps them from joining another secret society? If the definition yields no useful results, dump it.
> And the point of this is what? You claimed that I was strawmanning
> when I said that secret societies were illegal and/or immoral. How
> does 'degrees of persecution' refute this?
A low degree of persecution implies legitimation. One example is the taxing of prostitutes' income even where prostitution is illegitimate, and often regarded as immoral to boot.
Especially the Old Arkat Kult Alliance is a good example for a secret society which is in no overt way illegal or immoral, IMO.
[Why powerful people keep their membership in secret societies secret:]
>>You see what happens when they don't in the case of Darmangon of Borin.
> Who announced his membership in an immoral religion? But that doesn't
> answer the question of why the OAKA or the Argan Argar Chain conceal
> their own existance even in places where worship of Argan Argar or
> Arkat is legitimate.
Borin appears to be a place where the Boristi sect is almost legitimate and definitely tolerated. Darmangon's statement shows clearly that in Borin it is not evil to belong to the Borists.
The Chain does not exactly conceal ist existance. The absolute obedience
a Chain member must give to its commands could interfere with other business from other obligations, like say a craftsman who is asked to deliver within the next two days will be unable to do so if a call to a place a day off arrives the next day. His customer won't be pleased either knowing or not knowing that the craftsman is a Chain member, but knowing the craftsman is a chain member the customer might have given the order to someone else, even if no Chain command was imminent, just because of the knowledge it might.
Assume the craftsman is a tailor using troll-made silk, and you have a good reason for him to join the Chain...
OAKA is a bunch of small communities joining forces to survive the tides
of politics, or to be more precise, the tides of the Seshnegi border to Ralios. Its member churches had been present before Bailifes, they re-emerged before Ulianus returned Rokari domination by state power, and
they returned again after Vikkard tourneyed away his Ralian holdings. They may agree on the date when to have the Easter festivities, but not on the number or authors of gospels, to use an example from the early Christian Church for a change (a time when barbarian kingdoms with state
churches coexisted with a centralist church in a decrepit empire occasionally resurging to power, like against the Ostrogoths).
> Why don't the powerful inside announce their
> presence if they have nothing to hide?
Because it's easier for them not to. Naskorion's troll-friend policy hasn't gained them any human allies, and Darmangon was already mentioned. On the level below state rulers, such involvement is probably
stronger since state rulers usually have control of the state church, and less need to be secretive once they established their own brand as state church. I'm less certain about their heirs, and I see a lot of gaming potential in a county whose heirs to the ruler support different societies, or expect support from different societies. Unfortunately all
the major city-states which have detail have been detailed otherwise, but from the examples of Tara and Wexten we can assume that there are smaller city states somewhere in Safelster. And there always is Lalia...
> Read it again, I didn't what you think I said. I said there is
> no difference between a legitimate society and a secret society
> in the manner that you claimed. Both have equal chances of
> allowing you to become bigwigs in the society.
Objectively that's true. But then objectively, you can only lose in the lottery in the long run, yet billions of people gladly pay these voluntary taxes, or face similarly adverse rules in other forms of gambling.
I repeat: Secret societies have the lure of sidestepping a hierarchy.
> Nonsense. Very few Safelstrans join the OAKA with the hope of
> becoming Autarch of Stygia.
Few Safelstrans have that ambition. Those who do form their own societies. All who join any society seek some sort of advancement, or they wouldn't undergo the trouble joining it.
Where did you get the notion that one joins the OAKA to become Autarch of Stygia, Peter? Why this strawman?
> What should be answered is what
> the secret society explicitly offers its members and why it
> feels it must remain a secret, not vague blitherings about
> ralian social dynamics in general.
There are several hundred such societies in Ralios, which is why
detailing all and each of them goes beyond my time allowance. Taking
extreme examples like the Boristi doesn't help in any way. Only the
Chaos Monks would have been more of a strawman. Why did you not use the
OAKA?
> Good: The Borists offer its cultists a life without sin. It
> conceals its existance because its methods arouse digust in
> others.
"Disgust" is rather mild for being burned at the stake, which seems to be the common method of dealing with Borists outside of Borin.
The various branches of the Old Arkat Kult Alliance offer their members a way to higher truths of the Old Stygian Church of the Dark Empire. Many of the branches are small sects now, but once were state churches of various city-states of Ralios over time.
Many of these city-states were crushed, either by Safelstran conflicts (such as Parthania), or more often by Seshnegi conquest. The continuous threat of yet another Seshnegi invasion has prompted the sects and churches in the Old Arkat Kult Alliance to remain protective and secretive of membership, it is a survival strategy against the tides of politics.
Whenever a city-state is shattered, survivors of the battle are bound to
scatter across the other Safelstran cities, forming small cells of their
church wherever they manage to carve out a niche. This explains why the Alliance is strongest in the lands where the Seshnegi invaded most often, but also why small groups can be found nearly everywhere in Safelster. Part of the secrets is how to contact one's own group's sections elsewhere, and how to contact friendly other groups in case no local group is found.
As an OAKA member in Azilos, you can only applaud the fervor the Count displays in shielding the secrets of Arkat from the corrupt Rokari church.
Of course, each branch of the OAKA will attract people for different reasons. If there is a church of Arkat the Savior, it is likely to be one of the branches.
One of the unexpected difficulties in creating my character for Jose's game was to define the character's path to Arkat. Worship of Felstra was
a choice by occupation, worship of Arkat in one of the many forms was a choice by conviction. It also had to be in keeping with the sailor's youth and family (craftspeople of Tortun, guilded ropemakers whose third
son quit the already overcrowded business). Given the documented Orlanthi influence in the region, I decided on a Lightbringer connection
was not very much of a secretive secret society, but more a problem of finding co-religionists in other places.
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