[low signal content warning]
>[I brought up the Orlanthi parallel to illustrate that many references
>to the "exclusive nature" of theist cults turn out to be quite
>meaningless, and not painting an accurate picture of Glorantha, when
>Peter claimed that it was impossible to join two different secret
>societies, on principle, even when no Arkati sect is involved. I
>disagree with this sweeping statement.]
Lie and Damned Lie. Below is what the so-called "sweeping statement" which you responded to with the Orlanthi irrelevancy.
: But the Arkati and Religious Secret Societies are after people's : hearts. It's nigh impossible for them to devoutly manifest two : such loyalties. That is what I find disturbing about your notion : that people would consider joining two or more secret societies.
What I find intensely frustrating in this debate is your manifest inability to respond to the substance of what was said and your free usage of strawmen while denouncing any unanswerable argument of mine the same.
>> [On the question of why people join secret societies, Joerg posited
>> that profit from membership was a major reason.]
>> Virtually every religion has unknown secrets. You still haven't
>> identified a valid reason why people would grativate to the
>> secretive OAKA and not the fully legitimate Church of Arkat the
>> Savior just down the road.
>Who says that churches like Arkat the Savior's are not part of the Old
>Arkat Kult Alliance?
One is described as a minor religion and the other is described as an underground organization. This simple fact may be easily found in the Ralios writeup.
>> [I said secret societies were "illegal and/or immoral". Joerg
>> said I was strawmanning].
>> And this makes [the Boristi and the Galvosti] not illegal and
>> immoral in most people's eyes in what way?
>A state religion is hardly illegal in the state in question, is it?
FYI the Boristi heresy is not the state religion of Borin and has not been so for many centuries. Secondly the qualifies "in most people's eyes" is there for a reason. If you wish to put a few seconds of thought into the matter, you might find out why.
>>>By this definition, followers of the Loskalmi Hrestolism would be
>>>members of a secret society in Tanisor.
>> Yes and?
>Yes and what keeps them from joining another secret society?
I do _believe_ that I mention something about "devoutly manifest two such loyalties" to secret societies above, do I not?
>> And the point of this is what? You claimed that I was strawmanning
>> when I said that secret societies were illegal and/or immoral. How
>> does 'degrees of persecution' refute this?
>A low degree of persecution implies legitimation. One example is the
>taxing of prostitutes' income even where prostitution is illegitimate,
>and often regarded as immoral to boot.
How does this detract from the point that secret societies conceal their activities because of illegal and/or immoral activities? Try a relevant answer this time.
>Especially the Old Arkat Kult Alliance is a good example for a secret
>society which is in no overt way illegal or immoral, IMO.
Then why the _hell_ is it secret?
>[Why powerful people keep their membership in secret societies secret:]
>>>You see what happens when they don't in the case of Darmangon of
>>>Borin.
>> Who announced his membership in an immoral religion? But that doesn't
>> answer the question of why the OAKA or the Argan Argar Chain conceal
>> their own existance even in places where worship of Argan Argar or
>> Arkat is legitimate.
>Borin appears to be a place where the Boristi sect is almost legitimate
>and definitely tolerated. Darmangon's statement shows clearly that in
>Borin it is not evil to belong to the Borists.
Reread the description of Borin.
>The Chain does not exactly conceal ist existance.
Reread the description of the Argan Argar Chain.
>The absolute obedience
>a Chain member must give to its commands could interfere with other
>business from other obligations,
This is dull and boring. Furthermore it does not explain why the members conceal their nature from each other, a pertinent fact easily verifiable by reading the description of the Argan Argar Chain.
>> Why don't the powerful inside announce their
>> presence if they have nothing to hide?
>Because it's easier for them not to. Naskorion's troll-friend policy
>hasn't gained them any human allies, and Darmangon was already
>mentioned.
You _do_ remember, don't you, that the above question was asked in the light of "illegal and/or immoral" societies and your answer only confirms that they don't announce it because their activities are such. Now why do you feel it necessary to call my statement a strawman when you are _agreeing_ with it?
>> Nonsense. Very few Safelstrans join the OAKA with the hope of
>> becoming Autarch of Stygia.
>Where did you get the notion that one joins the OAKA to become Autarch
>of Stygia, Peter? Why this strawman?
You are hardly the person who should be calling arguments strawman. Secondly the notion logically follows from your proposition that people join the Arkati cults for "power" and side-stepping hierarchies.
>> What should be answered is what
>> the secret society explicitly offers its members and why it
>> feels it must remain a secret, not vague blitherings about
>> ralian social dynamics in general.
>There are several hundred such societies in Ralios, which is why
>detailing all and each of them goes beyond my time allowance.
I don't ask for individual detailing. What I do ask for is that the secrecy of a secret society have some occult significance if possible.
>Taking
>extreme examples like the Boristi doesn't help in any way. Only the
>Chaos Monks would have been more of a strawman. Why did you not use the
>OAKA?
Wonderful. Another accusation of strawmanning and a patently false
one at that. I have detailed my theory of why the Ancient Beasts
society might have a veil of secrecy in a previous post. Now I
would appreciate an apology but I fear that Joerg will only respond
with further allegations of strawmanning.
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #481
Powered by hypermail