> First, let me thank you for your warm welcome and please forgive me if
>sometimes my opinions are based more on personal speculations and less on
>official (or semi-official) material. You know, here in Italy it is bloody
>difficult to get any kind of non-Avalon Hill Gloranthan material!
>Now, to get to the point:
Not a problem, Alexandre, welcome!
>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 01:00:06 -0500
>> From: Chris Bell <argrath_at_xsite.net>
>> Subject: Chaos is a bad, bad thing!
>
>> First, I assume that you're referring to the worship of Humakt and >
>Chalana Arroy by *illuminant* Broos that are referenced in Dorastor, Land >
>of Doom.
>No, I'm referring to the Wild Healer of Rockwoods Mountains (which should be
>a Broo) and to the fact that Humakt is God of War, so any warrior should be
>eligible to worship him.
I'm sparse on the info about the Wild Healer of the Rockwoods, but I do know there are Chaos cleansing rites that enable Broos and some other creatures to be cleansed without Illumination (such as the Cleansed One subcult of Zola Fel.) As for Humakt, the cult write up in CoP (portions of which are on www.glorantha.com) makes it clear that Humakt only accepts warriors who are willing to hold up to a high ethical and moral standard. The typical soldier in Orlanthi culture is not Humakti...Those who follow Humakt are those who are prepared to serve Honor and Death, severing themselves from the community in order to serve it (which means, for an Orlanthi, a great sacrifice. I'm assuming that certain Tribal kings will only allow Humakti Weaponthanes to guard them, as due to their lack of Clan ties but tribal loyalties means they will be above the fray of intertribal politics and be totally loyal and honorable, sworn to their king as Humakt was to Orlanth.
> In the
>> Golden age, when all was perfect, there was no plague or suffering.
>Nor Death... Moreover, diseases are spirit-induced, so IMHO they are - to a
>certain extent - independent from Malia.
Nope. In Glorantha, according to Theyalan myth, *all* disease comes from Malia. Check the Malia description at www.glorantha.com.
>- -.. in order for the
>> Ritual of the Net to work, Malia and the other surviving Chaos Gods *had*
>to be incorpoarted into the world...
>I didn't find the exact quotes, but it seems to me that "Lords of Terror" -
>quite devious to quote from a work I don't like - suggests that of the Chaos
>Gods only Malia has a major part in the Great Compromise. The others are
>just the shades, whether material (Cacodemon) or spiritual (Thed), of their
>former selves.
Well, until Greg comes along and changes it, it *is* part of the Canon. Also remember that the cults and myths in Cults of Terror are from largely a Theyalan/Orlanthi POV. But, as Malia functions in Theyalan Myth, I stand by my sources and words.
>> One can't speak for the deeds of a Deity's worshippers, as the Compromise
>> allows mortals full freedom.
>Except when one of these worshippers steals from a temple, or misses his
>Holy Day, or doesn't tithe... We are talking about Deities with hosts of
>Spirits of Reprisal, so I think that the actions of worshippers qualify the
>God (but I'm getting dangerously close to a Tiresome Topic).
Nope, it's valid :) Remember, if the mortal *breaks* the contract with said God/Cult and violates his or her word, then said God is allowed to send reprisal and punishment as per the laws outlined in the Compromise. The mortal has the *choice* as to whether or not to rebel. Also, the spirits of reprisal have usually one stated function, and can only usually attack for a set amount of time to inflict a certain proscribed punishment. After that punishment has been inflicted, the Spirit departs and the former cultist is free to do as he or she wishes. Usually, Initiated can be badly messed with, but usually aren't killed or permanently cursed, Rune Masters face much more terrible punishments for so deeply betraying a god's trust. Further, before initiating, most Initiates have it spelled out to them exactly what will happen to them if they turn apostate. Most theyalan cults don't want slackers as worshippers, and will try to have lay members who don't seem like good prospects steered into another cult that more suits them.
> As stated in prior writings by FGS himself, nature
>> is actually what's lawful, the world as it was before the coming of >
>Chaos.
>According to the Introduction to Glorantha Book:
>"Glorantha represents a bubble in an infinity of chaos, order randomly
>formed. But the Gods War weakend that order..."
>I took it to mean that Glorantha formed out of Chaos according to the laws
>of the Theory of Probability, and in this sense I said that the disordered
>state was the stable one, because sooner or later a fluctuation would have
>reverted that island of order to the more probable state. I'm a
>mathematician after all...
Well, Glorantha is a world of Myth, not Math. :) Please see Simon Hibb's comments in the last Digest (Vol 6, number 116). he explained the role of Chaos, the pre-created world and nature in Glorantha better than I possibly could have.
> For vague and easy-to-twist
>> morality, check out Storyteller.
>Could you explain, please? What is Storyteller?
Vampire:The Masquerade and the World of Darkness, which stole much of it's Werewolf and Mage cosmology directky from Glorantha, IMO.
>To wrap up, I'd like to say that what I wrote was just a staging tip for
>Chaos. IMG I portray Chaos as the tempting, apparently unstoppable force
>which must nevertheless be stopped. PCs carry on their ordinary lives pulled
>in different directions by what they know and what they guess. More often
>than not they fall, and this shows how strong is the Temptation of Chaos.
>The above was just to clarify, not to make polemics.
>
>
> Alex
>
>P.S: Will you convert me to your loud Gods by telling their failures? The
>Goddess would never have provoked a "I Fought, We Won" battle. It takes a
>God such as Orlanth to hide away in Hell while his brothers carry on a fight
>begun for his misdeeds! ;-)
>
Orlanth says in a steely voice, "When you have suffered the fires of Ehilm
and the Proof of testing, when you have been scoured by the Baths of Nelat,
and have been devoured by Aroka to emerge victorious, *then* you may judge
me. As for Shepelkrit, she would have joined the forces we all fought
against, to save the world...!"
</Orlanth Mode OFF>
>Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:20:29 +0100 (BST)
>From: Alex Ferguson <abf_at_yeats.ucc.ie>
>Subject: My bi-monthly Chaos Duck Test post.
>[Greg]
>> said we could expect the first set of [HW] books at around Christmas time.
>
>Bummer. There goes another bunch of innocent fresher week (weak?) minds
>uncorrupted by the One True World of Gloranthan Gaming. I was really
>hoping for by the autumn. Still, looks like I'll win my bet about it
>not being out before the millennium (let's hope they at least make the
>Real Millennium, though) -- now to see if anyone's still alive/around
>for me to collect on it...
>
Ah, well. Think of of it this way...
"Hero Wars..The Official RPG of the New Millenium!"
>On whether 'all evil gods'/Malia are/needs be Chaotic:
>> It is also
>> the stated intent of the Chaos Gods, including Malia, to destroy the world
>> so that Chaos can be unfettered and all possibilities can be realised.
>
>This does no more than include Malia as a Chaos God by assertion. Even
>from an Orlanthi PoV this is questionable, though Malia is unambiguously
>an evil deity by their standards. (One of the few ways to get yourself
>formally executed in O. society (as opposed to one the many of getting
>done in on a more 'ad hoc' basis).)
Without Malia's aid, the birth of Wakboth would have been impossible. While perhaps not on the order of say, Pocharngo, Malia is definitely a Chaotic entity in my book. For example, her followers can actively Initiate into Primal Chaos.
>> You have it backwards. As stated in prior writings by FGS himself, nature
>> is actually what's lawful, the world as it was before the coming of Chaos.
>
>This depends both on one's cultural perspective, and what one means by
>'nature'. If one peers at the Cults of Terror article on the four
>main cosmological 'takes', one gets very different views on what the
>universe arises from. (What Chris may be thinking of are Golden Age
>myths, which are pretty much 'non-Chaotic' by definition.)
Disclaimer - I'm using Theyalan/Orlanthi myth here as my basis. What may stand in Dragon Pass may not be the case in, say, Trowjang or Pamaltela. Although the following cultures that I know of have Chaos Myths...
Orlanthi/Theyalan (Maniria)
Pamaltela (Vovisibor, Jaktral (Tap?) and others)
Malkioni (demons during the Ice age)
Praxian (arguably Theyalan)
Cultures that as far as I know *do not* have Chaos Myths...
Kralori
East Isles (although the East Isles have *Anti-Gods*, and a moral
corruption which comes from falling from enlightenment, although that may
not be Theyalan Chaos per se...)
Question - Do the Pre-Lunar (or modern) Pentans have Chaos myths, or would Chaos monsters simply be 'demons'?
>> although different cultures see Chaos in different ways.
Yes, definitely.
>And as being different _things_. Ther's not even a 'consensus' among
>major Gloranthan cultures agree on what Chaos is philosophically, morally,
>or I-know-it-when-I-see-it, as far as I'm awate.
>
>
>> But as far as Chaos is concerned, there is only one answer. For vague
>> and easy-to-twist morality, check out Storyteller.
>
>There's a obvious comeback to this sort of comparison, but I shall
>Manfully Resist.
You are a gentleman, sir :)
>Slan,
>Alex.
>Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:38:16 -0700
>From: Eric Rowe <rowe_at_chaosium.com>
>Subject: Re: My bi-monthly Chaos Duck Test post.
>
>>> said we could expect the first set of [HW] books at around Christmas time.
>>
>>Bummer. There goes another bunch of innocent fresher week (weak?) minds
>>uncorrupted by the One True World of Gloranthan Gaming. I was really
>>hoping for by the autumn. Still, looks like I'll win my bet about it
>>not being out before the millennium (let's hope they at least make the
>>Real Millennium, though) -- now to see if anyone's still alive/around
>>for me to collect on it...
>
>In the world of books, Christmas releases are done in October. Expect
>that give or take a month.
>
>Eric Rowe
>Wizard's Attic Publishing Services
>
Yippee! does that mean we can have Hero Wars out by Halloween? Jack-O-bears Hooray!
Best to everyone! May Eurmal bless your commode!
Chris Bell
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