Re: Chaos is boring

From: Neil Smith <neil.smith_at_rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:57:37 +0000


Several people agreed with my sentiments, while thinking they were arguing against them. Ho hum, I'll try to be clearer.

My main complaint is not against chaos in Glorantha, but rather the amount of published material that revolves around the "Chaos = Evil" idea, and the emphasis that this position recieves as a result of this. I am sure that everyone on this digest, enlightened people all, has risen above that, and can see the fallacy in that position.

_But_, this small community does form and will form the public face of Glorantha, and will show the wilder world what it's all about. And if _they_ get the message that chaos = evil, and bashing chaos is all there is to Glorantha, why should newcomers stay?

I think this community has been in the wilderness too long. Most of the comments boil down to "but you can write adventures that don't involve chaos." Yes, I can. But finding material to base them on is hard. Basing adventures on the existing "Kill the evil chaos" is easy. We need to publish, in readily-available forms, alternatives to chaos-bashing. _Pavis_ and _Borderlands_ were good examples. _SotB_ and _RoC_ were not. I hope the HW cultural material redresses this balance.

Finally, I'd like to say I'm not having a go at anyone, nor am I attacking anyone's idea of Glorantha. We're all on the same side. I'm as guilty as anyone (and more so than some) of not producing the material I want to see. But let's think about what we're doing, and what impression it will give.

A few more specific comments:

Simon Hibbs
- -----------

>>             .....Very often, conflicts are not caused by 
>> differences 
>> between Good and Evil, but simply by different sets of people 
>> having different agendas.

> Such as the Illuminated Mistresses of the Sedenya cult, the Red
> Emperor cult, the White Moon faction and the Rufelzan Redneck.
> All competing factions within the Lunar Empire with very different
> long term agendas.

Marvellous. Exactly the sort of thing I would love to play. But where would I start setting this up? Where is the source material? What adventures are there I can base these on?

> For Orlanthi Chaos is evil, but that simply isn't so for much of
> Glorantha.

Show me something other than Orlanthi, and I'll agree with you. As will the thousands of newcomers that will arrive through HW.

Alex Ferguson
- -------------

>>   * The Orlanthi will still hate the Lunars: the Lunars have
>>     invaded, are changing the Orlanthi way of life, changing the
>>     mythic landscape.

> Sounds like you wish to make the Lunars _less_ morally ambiguous in
> their Badness.

Current Orlanthi position: "Lunars are evil because they are chaos and seek to destroy the universe." Everyone else: "You've got a point. Kill the Lunar chaotics!" Objective evil.

New Orlanthi position: "Lunars are evil because they're invading our land." Everyone else: "So what?" Subjective evil. More scope for fun around the edges, PCs get to make their own decisions.

>>   * "Chaos" gods remain hated or feared.  Thanatari still steal
>>     knowledge, Krarshti still conspire, Thedi(?) still rape.  
>>     Humakti still kill.

> So where's the beef? If 'Chaos' gods are still (functionally
> speaking) 'evil', what moral depth does this add, in and of
> itself? If you want to portray them as less unambiguously evil (or
> just as being less evil, even), I don't see how this is
> incompatible with their being 'chaotic'.

So, remorseless killers that murder without a second thought (Humakti) are OK, but village elders that sacrifice themselves so their knowledge is not lost to the community (Thanatari) are evil?

Remove the big objective "evil" or "chaos" sign, and players can have more fun exploring different permutations.

>> * The Compromise remains, to include and control the changes of >> the Storm Age into the stability of the Golden Age.

> Without the Chaos Age, why would the Storm Gods have bothered?

Orlanth broke the world, and almost destroyed it. When he fixed it, it was different from before. Who needs chaos?

> Potted conclusion: ... examine more
> closely [chaos's] assumed identity with 'evil'.

Exactly. Let's do that. Let's make sure the published sources reflect that. With Hero Wars, let's do something more interesting than what a lot of RQ3 products offered.

Neil.


Powered by hypermail