Sure, "chaos, what's that?". The concept doesn't exist in the world model of the East Islanders. Alex can speak up for the Kralorelans, but since they have common roots way back, I suspect that the situation is similar.
The Vithelan mythology presented in Myth of the Month a
while ago mentions the three measures: Time, Space and Consciousness. These are continuous spectra, with the high gods' world at the eternal, changeless, transcendentend and the fleeting, ever-fluctuating underworld of antigods, illusions and hells at the other end.
The introduction of death, the coming of chaos, the great compromise and the birth of time are all foreign to the easterners.
>> ..... I'm sure there is stuff in the
>>East Isles that an Orlanthi would call chaotic. I
>>don't think an Islander would agree that it is extra-
>>cosmic. Since a chaos thingie, like a broo for example,
>>is not the Ultimate it is part of the world to the
>>Islander, including the chaotic part of it.
>
>This may be simply because they have very little contact
>with chaos and so don't realy understand it.
I think an Orlanthi would claim that antigods like Oorsu Sara are chaotic (Oorsu Sara has a lot of common with Wakboth, like being bred specially for being nasty and almost destroying the world).
>I agree that
>a philosophy such as mysticism is equaly as true as any
>other valid philosophy. That does not mean that everything
>they believe or think that they know is therefore true
>and complete.
I agree completely, their model is just one of several which all work.
>The Lunars also have a mystical philosophy
>and have a far more intimate understanding of chaos.
More intimate understanding of the central Genertelan conception of chaos. The point I'm trying to make is that chaos is a label, not an absolute which transcends cultural/world model boundaries.
>>I disagree again. I don't think you can make a parallell
>>between extra-cosmic (as in Orlanthi chaos definition)
>>and the transcendent (or ultimate or what you prefer
>>to call it). The nasties called chaotic are very clearly
>>_not_ transcendent.
>
>Absolutely right, but they are easily confused because to
>understand them you need to understand similar concepts.
>Transcendence is a state beyond individuality and the
>concious sense of self, chaos annihiliates individuality
>and is the antithesis of 'Self'. These are not the same
>thing.
Very well put. I can only add that in the world model of the three measures, "chaos" and "transcendence" are at he opposite ends of the spectra.
Alex F:
>
>> I disagree. The East Islanders didn't even know of
>> such a distinction until they heard visitors from
>> the west talk of it.
>
>That's not what I was saying. I explicitly said that this was an
>_Orlanthi_ cultural understanding, but that it's not inconsistent
>with the eastern viewpoint, in the (highly contrived) event that
>you can get them to agree on a set of common definitions and
>references.
Sorry to be dense, but I don't see how the extra-cosmic explanation is consistent with the eastern viewpoint. Could you explain in terms of the three measures for example how "chaos" is extra-cosmic?
Unless what you've been saying all along is that to the Orlanthi "chaos" is extra-cosmic because there's no room for it in their concept of cosmos, while the East Islanders don't understand becaus they define cosmos differently? If that's the case, I have been agreeing withou being astute enough to realize it.
What I'm arguing against in this case (except possibly myself) is the assumption that cosmos and chaos are given constants.
>> I'm sure there is stuff in the
>> East Isles that an Orlanthi would call chaotic. I
>> don't think an Islander would agree that it is extra-
>> cosmic. Since a chaos thingie, like a broo for example,
>> is not the Ultimate it is part of the world to the
>> Islander, including the chaotic part of it.
>
>Of course not, they're largely 'nature', as I've said numerous times.
Indeed, sorry if I came off as implying otherwise.
>Thus they're not "transcendant beings" in any sense that would be
>remotely interesting from a Vithelan PoV. In the the unlikely
>event of an Orlanthi saying "Yes, but they're Chaotic because several
>Ages ago, an extra-cosmic thingy Mutuated them into their present,
>slimy state", your average East Islander, mystic or otherwise,
>would be bored to tears by this uninteresting and incredibly pedantic
>distinction he was trying to make. "So what? It's part of Nature
>_now_, isn't it, just an abused and broken part?" (Not unlike Morgan's
>virus viewpoint, as it were.) "And another thing, let's review
>your definition of 'extra-cosmic'..."
Exactly! The East Islander would say that the broo is natural now, and was when its slimy race was created too.
>> I don't think you can make a parallell
>> between extra-cosmic (as in Orlanthi chaos definition)
>> and the transcendent (or ultimate or what you prefer
>> to call it).
>
>I'm sorry, but I just did. ;-)
OK, slight rephrasing then. I don't think it's a very _useful_ parallell.
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