Has this been written up officially? I thought the Star Bear story related to Arakang and Orogeria and came from Arir. Please, please explain.
Andrew
======================================================
"This inexact science is known as Djinnetic
Engineering, on account of being not unlike
letting a rabid genie out of a bottle."
Jeff Noon, Automated Alice
On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, The Glorantha Digest wrote:
>
> The Glorantha Digest Wednesday, April 28 1999 Volume 06 : Number 563
>
>
>
> TABLE OF CONTENTS
>
> David Dunham Re: Tarsh vs Sartar
> Peter Metcalfe Lunar Orlanthi
> Peter Metcalfe Faith and Malkionism
> Nick Brooke Compromise and Devil
> Nick Brooke Storm and Moon
> Doyle Wayne Ramos-Tavener Hero Wars topics
>
> RULES OF THE ROAD
>
> 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially
> not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated.
> If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show"
> please do. But don't include the whole message you praise.
> 2. Use an appropriate Subject line.
> 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a
> point-by-point basis.
> 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready
> to stand by it.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:00:19 -0700
> From: David Dunham <dunham_at_pensee.com>
> Subject: Re: Tarsh vs Sartar
>
> Adam Betteridge asked
>
> > would a worshipper of Orlanth be able to worship the Lunar Goddess?
>
> Why is this even a question? Of course the answer is yes. Look at Rascius
> (clearly a Lunarized name), the one-eyed king of Aggar (you can look at him
> in more detail in Enclosure 2). Aggar is and has always been an Orlanthi
> stronghold. Aggar is not going to have anyone but an Orlanthi as its king.
>
> Don't forget that worship doesn't mean initiation. I don't think you could
> be an initiate of both religions. But you don't have to be an initiate to
> offer worship.
>
> > Lunars are introducing different ideas, hereditary rulership,
> > taxation etc.
>
> Hereditary rulership is IMO an old Vingkotling custom (which, BTW, was
> resurrected by Sartar for his kingdom). I believe there's a reason everyone
> didn't just bump off Bad King Urgrain (the classic example of a Vingkotling
> king in my book), and one of the reasons is that there would have been no
> other lawful king. Nobody else had the right blood.
>
> Furthermore, Tarsh is also an example of a hereditary kingdom -- well
> before it became Lunarized (Arim's grandson if I recall correctly, or maybe
> great-grandson, was the first king who asserted his right to rule solely by
> his bloodline).
>
> > it appears to be the Tarshites in Sartar that are causing the problems
>
> You have been listening to (Not Bloody) Jeff!
>
> David Dunham <mailto:dunham_at_pensee.com>
> Glorantha/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html>
> Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:00:34 +1200
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz>
> Subject: Lunar Orlanthi
>
> Adam Betteridge:
>
> >I was talking with the rest of my group the other day & the topic came up
> >would a worshipper of Orlanth be able to worship the Lunar Goddess?
>
> An Orlanthi would be able to worship the Goddess but one cannot
> worship Orlanth at the same time. A Tarshite could worship Ernalda
> or Barntar as well as the Goddess but Orlanth himself is an implaccable
> foe. Within the Empire, there are plenty of storm deities and sons
> of Orlanth who can be invoked for their aerial powers. As a result
> of the Imperial conquest of South Peloria, these gods have become
> emphasized at the expense of directly worshipping Orlanth himself.
>
> >When the leaders begin to follow these ideas people follow
> >them in increasing numbers if it works. This begins a breakdown in
> >traditional Heortish values & customs until after a few generations a
> >complete change will have gone about.
>
> If so, it's taking an inordinately long time to come about. Sylila
> has been Lunarized for yonks but the vast majority of its citizens
> are still recognizably Orlanthi.
>
> > The main problem with Sartari campaigns is that the Lunars are often
> >bunched up as one people. however it appears to be the Tarshites in Sartar
> >that are causing the problems.
>
> I think both Heartlanders and Tarshites have their good sides and bad
> when dealing with the Sartarites. The problem is that currently they
> are squabbling for control and the Sartarites are getting the worst
> of both worlds.
>
> >The disciplined Heartland troops are less
> >likely to pillage/torture/massacre at random than the thieving Tarshites
> >thus would cause fewer problems for the locals.
>
> OTOH they are more likely to do so as a result of deliberate government
> policy. "Crucify the usual suspects".
>
> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:18:59 +1200
> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz>
> Subject: Faith and Malkionism
>
> Keith Nellist:
>
> >IMHO it was a mistake to have Saints granting blessings for exactly this
> >reason. Westerners must have Faith that they will gain Solace. If it is
> >simply proved to them then it is valueless.
>
> But their magic proves that God exists so they are incapable of having
> Faith that He exists. And if Faith in God is not needed, then what point
> is there in having Faith in Solace?
>
> >I would (if I ever ran a campaign in the West) have Saints blessing as
> >sorcerous spells manipulated by the wizards.
>
> But Saints Blessing's are available to all while Wizardly Spells are
> only available to the Wizards.
>
> >The Creator should be Invisible after all.
>
> He is but has left signs and manifestations that point back to His
> Presence.
>
> >What is Solace if you are a Saint constantly being interrupted to do
> >some Blessing? A dreadful chore, better to be a mediocre worshipper
> >who just goes there and gets to relax a bit.
>
> So why do some Orlanthi strive to become worshipped heroes which
> amounts to the same type of interuption in the afterlife?
>
> - --Peter Metcalfe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 06:44:37 +0100
> From: "Nick Brooke" <Nick_Brooke_at_csi.com>
> Subject: Compromise and Devil
>
> Julian writes:
>
> > I was trying to suggest that entering into the Great Compromise
> > fostered protection against Cosmic Entropy.
>
> Yes, I agree that that's what it's all about.
>
> > Those portions of the universe which were not included in this
> > agreement have no existence in this new world. This is Entropy.
>
> I don't really agree with this. The gods may have been tricked into
> recognising Time (offspring of Nature and Entropy) as ruling deity of the
> New Age, but Time is the entity the Compromise was sworn upon, who upholds
> the oaths of the universe. A "synthesis of entropy and existence", IIRC.
> Very much a part of the new world -- in fact, the defining part.
>
> > Hence, my inference :
> > not having your Arachne Solara Club tie
> > = destruction by Chaos
>
> As you will have recognised, I misread your initial position as saying that
> the *gods* somehow annihilated any of their number who refused to join the
> Great Compromise, not that Chaos did so. My apologies for any confusion --
> against the background of "Chaos isn't anything special" posts that have
> been flying around, your orthodoxy should have been refreshingly obvious!
>
> > Before the Compromise, but after the appearance of the Devil, there
> > was precious _little_ difference between Death and Annihilation.
>
> Dunno about that. There was no way back from the Underworld to the rest of
> Glorantha, because the paths hadn't been opened (this is part of what the
> LBQ, Aldrya's Rite of Spring, etc. are all about). But definite (albeit
> miserable) existence in an (admittedly unwholesome) part of Glorantha --
> think of Maggotliege's Hall in KoS -- is distinctly different to Utter and
> Irreversible Annihilation. A comparison seems unworthwhile.
>
> > So yes, maybe the Devil *was* just another god, albeit a very
> > powerful, and a very hostile and destructive one.
>
> Maybe atomic weapons *are* just another kind of bomb, albeit a very powerful
> and destructive one?
>
> I think the terrifying, unearthly horror of the Devil's violation of
> Glorantha is only lessened if we describe it as "just another god".
> Likewise, if we twist words to say "Chaos is part of nature". Yes, weird
> Gloranthan theologians could hold these positions ("The Devil is to Orlanth
> as Orlanth was to Yelm"; "Chaos is now part of Nature, just as the Middle
> Air intruded into the Perfect World of Yelm"; "All Nature arose from Chaos,
> the Primal Plasma"). There are plenty of sources for such beliefs in "Lords
> of Terror" and "Drastic: Chaos", inter alia. But unless you are building
> your game around the truth of these perceptions (e.g. to run a PC party of
> Nysalor Illuminates, Eastern Mystics or whatever), or writing an exposition
> or polemic from such a POV (e.g. my Lunar priest on Drastic: Chaos p.62: "We
> are all creatures of Chaos"), it's probably best to explore the more
> orthodox philosophies. After all, 99% of Gloranthans do!
>
> Regards, Nick
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 06:44:40 +0100
> From: "Nick Brooke" <Nick_Brooke_at_csi.com>
> Subject: Storm and Moon
>
> ____
> Adam asks:
>
> > Would a worshipper of Orlanth be able to worship the Lunar Goddess?
>
> Tricky: best check with your Storm Voice and Moon Priestess, to make sure
> it's OK with both of them. Worshipping Orlanth as the Rebel God who
> Overthrows Evil Empires would probably be taken as being inconsistent with
> mainstream Lunar worship, wherever you look. Part of this hostility is
> cosmic (the Moon vs. the Middle Air), part is historic (Lunar roots in
> Yelmic Dara Happa), part is local and political (Lunars in occupying power
> in Sartar and Prax vs. local popularity in Tarsh and the Provinces). In
> general, I'd say there are likely to be few "Lunarised Orlanthi": the known
> propensity of the Empire to persuade Orlanthi to convert (with tax breaks,
> soft words, or fire and the sword) makes it unlikely that there are tens of
> thousands of loyal Red Orlanthi back in the Provinces.
>
> In the "Guide to Glamour" article on the Lunar Pantheon, Greg and I wrote:
>
> : The Old Gods who preceded the Lunar Way still receive worship within
> : the Empire... The only exception is Orlanth, the Last Rebel, eternal
> : enemy of peace and stability. Worship of this turbulent and barbaric
> : deity is prohibited within the Empire, and its campaigns of conquest
> : have been intended to break his power. Former worshippers of the Storm
> : God are encouraged to worship tamer, more palatable atmospheric deities,
> : such as Molanni, a consort of Yelm, or Entekos, goddess of Good Weather.
> :
> : Orlanth was not chosen by the Red Goddess as her Last Enemy. Their
> : hostility is a cosmic process, and inevitable. When Rufelza's cyclical
> : revolution replaces Orlanth's turbulent rebellion as the motive principle
> : of the Middle Air, then Orlanth will no longer have a place in Glorantha.
> : The defeat of this troublesome and disobedient god will finalise Rufelza's
> : integration into all Glorantha. Vast lands in the East, West, and South
> : will not need to be conquered by the Lunar Empire to defeat Orlanth.
> : Their ultimate acceptance of the Lunar Way will be inescapable after
> : Orlanth is bound.
>
> Acknowledging a tamed or subdued Orlanth, one subservient to the Red Goddess
> (as the Sylilans do with their myths of the taming of the Star Bear by
> Orogeria), might well be compatible with the Lunar Way. Sartar-style worship
> of Orlanth Adventurous, Implacable Foe of the Empire, isn't. "Real" Orlanthi
> would sneer at "Lunarised" Orlanthi, who would almost certainly be unable to
> access all of their god's powers and myths.
>
> Here's more Greg, from the RQCon-2 Compendium, p.81:
>
> : When the Lunars overrun an Orlanthi area, they don't *really* insist that
> : people join the Yelm cult ... they would set up a Yelm temple for them-
> : selves and they would set up a temple of Entekos, the Dara Happan goddess
> : of weather and atmosphere. They would set up a temple to her, and those
> : people who attended that temple would get more favours than the Orlanthi
> : people who did not. And it could be something as simple as, "The tax for
> : *these* people is two sheep per year, and *these* is one a year, and it's
> : up to you to decide where you worship. The Lunars would do this. The Yelm-
> : ites probably *wouldn't* do this. They'd just suppress them. They'd say,
> : "You're evil Orlanthi, just pay us extra money." They wouldn't necessarily
> : set up the Entekos temple. And, again, I want to cover my tail and say it
> : also depends upon the period of history you're talking about.
>
> NB: Entekos is equated by Orlanthi with Molanni, the treacherous concubine
> of Yelm, goddess of Calm Air and mother of Drought.
>
> > The main problem with Sartari campaigns is that the Lunars are often
> > bunched up as one people. However it appears to be the Tarshites in
> > Sartar that are causing the problems. The disciplined Heartland troops
> > are less likely to pillage/torture/massacre at random than the thieving
> > Tarshites thus would cause fewer problems for the locals. This is more
> > a case of Orlanthi fighting Orlanthi than Lunars vs Orlanthi.
>
> That's an interesting perception. I have tended to see things the other way
> around: the Tarshite rulers, seeking to extend their dominion over all
> Orlanthi in the Provinces (as High Kings of Dragon Pass, Kings of the
> Heortlings, etc.), might well be more touchy-feely and sensitive to
> Sartarite concerns; the Dara Happans, seeking to crush Rebellus Terminus
> beneath their hobnailed military sandals, are more likely to be *ordered* to
> pillage/torture/massacre (*not* at random), and less likely to have scruples
> about doing so to a "barbarian" occupied people. I guess you can spin it
> either way, perhaps having individuals on both sides (Tarshite and
> Heartland) embodying both stereotypes: fellow Orlanthi barbarians /
> plundering opportunist rabble, vs. disciplined civilised troops / hostile
> Yelmic occupiers.
>
> The main "source" for my opinions would be the difference between Dara
> Happan governors (shits like Euglyptus and Tatius) and the
> ever-so-considerate Tarshite general Fazzur. The invasion of Sartar in 1602
> looks like a deliberate attempt to rile barbarians -- the Lunars wheeled on
> the Bat, the Undead, and the Evil Emperor in person to make their point.
> Jeff Richard and I have speculated that this was meant to make Sartar
> impossible to assimilate into the Lunar way, for whatever deep and
> unfathomable reasons -- perhaps, like the Aztecs, the DHs wanted to preserve
> some Enemy Barbarians to beat up for the foreseeable future? Perhaps they
> opposed the growing Tarshite hegemony among the southern Provinces? Who
> Knows?
>
> > I may be wrong in my interpretations but this is my Glorantha.
>
> Your Glorantha is a wonderful thing, of course, and I only mention my own
> opinions as an alternative construction. I stress that it is ridiculous to
> suggest that "Orlanth worship is banned in Sartar" means there have been no
> non-outlawed initiations since 1602 -- while the big tribal Weapontakes have
> doubtless been suppressed (as these are dangerous gatherings of armed
> potential rebels), and known rebel leaders are proscribed, hunted down and
> disposed of whenever possible, IMG *most* Sartarites have continued to
> worship Orlanth -- and will do so until the costs of doing so (or the
> benefits of changing to the Lunar Way) become too great. The long-term Lunar
> strategy would be to make Lunarisation so attractive that the whole
> Sartarite population chose to Embrace the Red Goddess (and renounce Stale
> Wind).
>
> Working for some kind of "Marriage of Orlanth and the Red Goddess" would
> sound kinda odd (and possibly heretical?) to plenty of high-ranking
> Imperials, IMG -- though, as in the Chaotic discussion before, I stress that
> this certainly appears to be a viable mythic alternative to the present
> policies of the Empire. One for the flaky fringe-groups and long-haired (or
> bald levitating) White Moonie weirdoes, perhaps?
>
> Cheers, Nick
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:24:16 -0500
> From: Doyle Wayne Ramos-Tavener <tavener_at_swbell.net>
> Subject: Hero Wars topics
>
> Most of these topics are not direct responses to anyone's post in
> particular. Rather, they are topics that are of concern to me or,
> alternately, topics where I feel I have either insight to share or language
> that may not have been used before.
>
> At certain points I will make characterizations about opinions or beliefs
> of 'role-players', 'retailers', 'list members', 'old style RQ guys' or
> other groups in single quotes. You should understand that these
> characterizations are beliefs of mine, which may or may not be shared by
> any particular member of these groups.
>
> The man is straw, and is available for inspection by all.
>
> Topic # 1 - Hero Wars is the best method by which Glorantha may be
> introduced to a new generation of gamers.
>
> Hero Wars is certainly better at this than Runequest, which is dead,
> commercially. When I ran the Troubled Waters campaign, all of my players
> assumed, after an cursory examination of RQ mechanics, that RQ was a
> monster combat RPG, like Rolemaster. They wondered why I was wasting my
> time, and theirs. And this was just a year or so after Vampire. Nowadays
> even more people will have this opinion, I am afraid.
>
> Point A - most 'gamers' familiar with the current scene think RQ passe at
> best, and something to avoid at worst.
>
> Over the last couple of years I had to the opportunity to ask retailers
> about RQ and Glorantha. For the vast majority of 'retailers', the two are
> synonymous. They invariably say (if they have been around this long, which
> most have not), "Oh, yeah. Runequest. Used to sell fairly well. Until
> Avalon Hill got it. Then sales went into the toilet."
>
> Point B - Most 'retailers' believe (if they know at all) that RQ and
> Glorantha are the same thing; And they believe that RQ does not sell.
>
> Conclusion: was Hero Wars the right way to go, from a Biz standpoint? The
> only conclusion that can be reached is that it does not matter what system
> is used, _as long as it is not RQ_.
>
> Topic # 2 Hero Wars is better at Heroquest than RQ
>
> This being the case (RQ not being a viable biz option), Greg Stafford was
> free to determine which system best fit his ideal: a set of mechanics that
> tries to represent Gloranthan reality, as a gaming construct. That this
> sort of decision was made without consulting us should surprise no one.
> After all, who owns the copyright?
>
> I urge all to recall that RQ mechanics distort a proper understanding of
> Glorantha, whoever the GM and Players might be.
>
> Let me be clear: that such campaigns are satisfying, challenging, and have
> revealed much about Glorantha in the past is undeniable.
>
> But the rate of return for new discoveries had slowed considerably, for the
> simple reason that one cannot simulate a Heroquest or HQ level activities
> with the RQ language.
>
> The point that no 'language' (read rules) may be adequate for Heroquest is
> well taken. But I can go to only one Glorantha-con a year, and I do want a
> set of table-top rules that models HQ-stuff as much as humanly possible.
>
> Topic # 3 - Can Hero Wars sell?
>
> Today's market for games cannot be easily characterized. What the hell,
> let's give it a try.
>
> A - Games with few rules sell more than games than many rules. This can
> easily be demonstrated by looking at the sales figures for the last several
> years. The only one to buck this trend is Deadlands, which is still simpler
> that games in previous epochs. And it slavishly follows B, discussed below.
>
> B - Games that sell well possess a steady stream of product, which is then
> funneled through distribution. In general, 'retailers' want games that are
> more like Card games in sales patterns. They want people to come through
> the door, and buy what's new in the line. They don't want product that
> hangs in the store for more than a month. "If it takes more than a week to
> sell, it's a failure." is a comment I have heard over and over...
>
> One of the few benefits of Gloranthan material only coming out in fan form
> is the existence of developed material that already exists and the backlog
> of creative energy that a new line releases. There is a huge amount of
> material from fan, semi-pro and might-as-well-be-pro sources I would dearly
> love to see. There exists the potential for material to come out once a
> month, if sufficient resources exist to edit and send the material through
> production quickly enough.
>
> (/unfounded rumor-mongering)
> One suspects that the reason the TOTRM crew shut down operations is that
> they and the Seattle Collective are the new sweatshops where Gloranthan
> material will be cranked out in the future...
> (\unfounded rumor-mongering)
>
> C - The market today does respond to innovation.
>
> It may be a surprise to some, but the vanguard of the new designers in the
> last several years are ex-Glorantha Geeks, to a great extent. Mark
> Rein-Hagen, Johnathan Tweet, Robin Laws (obviously) and others came into
> the market as individuals that were fascinated by the possibilities of
> Glorantha, and it seems that many of them were first opened up to the
> possibilities that gaming had through Glorantha.
>
> The impact of this generation of designers is still reverberating.
> Roleplaying is different after Vampire, even if it is not better, as some
> had hoped.
>
> With the exception of the noble failure of Everway, no one has attempted
> real innovation in fantasy RPGs (exception: L5R). TSR, despite recent
> stumbles, is still the big boy. So the market seems like it should be
> there. Glorantha and Hero Wars may be the Next Big Hit, the Vt:M of
> Fantasy RPGs.
>
> Topic # 4 - Hero Wars Combat
>
> Yeah, it could get boring quickly. That's just my personal assessment
> after two playtests, by the way. But combat is not why I liked RQ,
> Glorantha is the reason I liked RQ.
>
> I was one of those who, when I acquired Cults of Prax (way back when),
> looked in the back, saw the Tribal table, and wondered, "Gee, I wish they
> had put more in about the tribes. All I know about now is the religious
> stuff..." I personally would have never considered running a campaign in
> Prax until the Prax stuff in TOTRM and Drastic: Prax came out.
>
> When I run Hero Wars in the future, I will simply run fewer combats, and
> stage them really well, so they are memorable enough to overcome the
> blandness of HW combat. And I will have rules for adjudicating conflicts
> in a combat-style manner, so things will hopefully be as exciting as before.
>
> Topic # 4 - Scenario books
>
> It is axiom that good adventures are hard to write. RQ had better scenarios
> than _anybody_ in the industry, with the single exception of Call of
> Cthulhu. This was undeniably part of the appeal of the old line, one that I
> hope finds a place in the new line, and not just on a website.
>
> This does not mean they will be like the old scenarios. The best scenario
> in the Borderlands pack was not the big dungeon crawl, but the
> Morokanth/Agimori conflict that the players were called upon to adjudicate.
>
> It may be to keep up with the 'book-a-month' marketing strategy, books
> dedicated to scenarios may find a place. If they are as excellent as
> material by a certain MOB, I am certain that I would buy them.
>
> Enough for now,
>
>
>
> Doyle Wayne Ramos-Tavener
>
>
> It is not reasonable to suppose that Aristotle knew the number of the Elect.
>
> - -Albertus Magnus
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #563
> ***********************************
>
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #565
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