> I was talking with the rest of my group the other day & the topic came
up
> would a worshipper of Orlanth be able to worship the Lunar Goddess?
Indirectly evidently yes, or the majority of the Orlanthi in Sylila and the Provinces would be in a very bad position. There are more Orlanthi inside the Lunar Empire than in Maniria!
Worship of the Red Goddess is a very indirect affair even inside the Heartlands of the Empire. Various aspects (like Orogeria, the Moon Huntress possibly worshipped by Jomes Wulf) aren't quite the Real Thing.
> These
> 2 religions seem to be set against each other since the Castle Blue
> incident but with the Empire's push south there are increasing numbers
of
> Orlanthi (being worshippers of the Storm Gods) within it. In the
past
> within our group the Lunars as the push south have been converting
people
> by the sword but after (Not Bloody) Jeffs talk at the last
Gloranthacon DU
> my thoughts on the matter have changed.
Hwarin Dalthippa's conquest was first and foremost achieved by her marriage to Ingkot. Quite generally, the provincial Lunar presence is strong in the earth cults, the wife of Orlanth. It is not like the Lunar
religion offers a strong male alternative to Orlanth, only to his thanes. A bit like in Esrolia, the Lunar earth cults entertain various husband deities, who in turn have various spouses. While a direct marriage Orlanth/Red Goddess does seem highly unlikely, the issue is much muddier with assorted associates.
> I am know under the impression that conversion has been via more
> insidious means, the Lunars have been starting at the top & working
there
> way down through the rest of society.
Even more insidious - they don't put their lever at any predictable place. Sometimes they work bottom up, as in the Teelo Norri poor funds -
which your average Orlanthi will understand as sort of adoption into some fuzzy kinship relation, because care for non-kin is pretty much unheard of. (This would mean that CA is regarded similarly?)
> I have always seen the average
> Orlanthi Chief as someone who can & does work the land for the benefit
of
> all, but the Lunars are introducing different ideas, hereditary
rulership,
> taxation etc.
Hereditary rulership is an ancient Orlanthi, or more exact: Vingkotling,
tradition. The "meritocratic" Alakoring system now used by most Orlanthi
in Dragon Pass does not support larger structures easily, which was sort
of the point when it was (re-) introduced to the EWF Orlanthi.
Taxation and tribute/tithe are different words for the same concept. Taxes are seen as an annual tribute to the vitorious Lunar army in Sartar, and in Tarsh they are in part seen as tithes to the temples (which house much of the bureaucracy in Furthest).
Of course these concepts appear new to your backwater rural Orlanthi from Old Sartar, but his ancestors knew these only too well - they were part of the reason why they settled in Dragon Pass.
> When the leaders begin to follow these ideas people follow
> them in increasing numbers if it works. This begins a breakdown in
> traditional Heortish values & customs until after a few generations a
> complete change will have gone about.
While true, this is not limited to the Lunars as influence. The Orlanthi
are and have always been prone to try new ways. It is a tradition, really... Sometimes these new ways originated among them, at other times
outside influences were stronger.
Take for instance the Sartar military. In the DP boardgame, half the "city militia" is medium cavalry, a heritage of the Kingdom of Heortland
where these housecarls are called knights (preferably in ancient spelling). You might cry "vile Western influence", or you may claim "ancient Orlanthi tradition". In both cases, you're right.
Right now, what you call "Heortish values" are more a mix of Harmast's
doctrine
(derived from what he was able to recover from pre-Lokamayadon Heortling
ways) and Alakoring's variations to this doctrine when it was mixed with
draconic elements during the EWF era. Tribal minuscule kings are not the
Heortling way of old. I think that Harmast would have derided the idea of 20+ kings in the tribal lands of the Orgorvaltes now known as Sartar...
> I believe this is how the Lunars have dealt with the provinces
IMO they were present on many levels, and many of their initial foes were such not so much for their hatred of Hwarin Dalthippa and her innovations but for old grievances with Ingkot.
> The main problem with Sartari campaigns is that the Lunars are
often
> bunched up as one people. however it appears to be the Tarshites in
Sartar
> that are causing the problems.
On the contrary, IMO.
> The disciplined Heartland troops are less
> likely to pillage/torture/massacre at random than the thieving
Tarshites
> thus would cause fewer problems for the locals.
The disciplined Heartland troops think nothing of ordering an entire settlement raped and then killed with extreme prejudice. Your average rural Tarshite would think twice before acting this broo-like (for fear of becoming one).
The Tarshites are thieving, no doubt - what they want of Sartar is an extension of their own kingdom. The Dara Happan-dominated Heartland forces have a quite different goal - they want to crush Rebellus Terminus and his followers under the sandaled heels of Divine Justice.
The Tarshites know how to deal with tribal kings and thanes, they know where and how to tweak to achieve results. The Dara Happans demand blind
obeisance, and finding natives who dare address them with an outright other opinion than their divine own, are prone to react with displays of
imperial power and displeasure, say impale the offender and enslave his family after watching the horrible death. Luckily most fresh Heartland officers get some experienced aides from the Provincial government as advisors.
Compare the policies of Euglyptus the Fat and Fazzur. Euglyptus taxed all Sartarite tribes heavily. Fazzur knows who to reward and who to punish. Divide and conquer works _extremely_ well with Orlanthi.
> This is more a case of Orlanthi fighting Orlanthi than Lunars vs
Orlanthi.
Not really. The (civilized) Aldachuri are quite happy to to accept the Tarshites once again as their nominal overlords, as long as their own prince keeps the say in their affairs. The Aranwyth (frex) have little direct trouble with the Tarshites, and the Dundealos even were old allies of Tarsh against both Praxians and western Quivini tribes.
You might say that the Tarsh royal house still is miffed at the Sartar royal line's role in destroying King Philigos (when returned to fight Palashee Long-Axe), and at Tarkalor for besting Phargentes for the hand of the Feathered Horse Queen in 1575. But I still think that greed is the main motivation for the Tarshites.
> Whilst I understand
> that there are bound to be occasional lapses in relations, between
> Heartland troops & the locals I believe that this is less the
Heartlanders
> fault than locals already upset with being ripped off by Tarshite tax
> collectors & soldiers. I may be wrong in my interpretations but this
is
> my glorantha.
Well, my Glorantha differs radically.
A few facts: After the Starbrow Rebellion 1613, (at least some of the) Lunar taxes in Sartar were farmed to a certain Gringle Goodsell of Apple
Lane. (Check Dragon's Past in Wyrm's Footprints.)
Estal Donge, the companion of Temertain, is a daughter of Moirades. This
indicates a Tarshite hand in the "get Sartar's allegiance through marriage" plot rather than a Heartland source.
If you look at the characters of the Lunar Provincial Government, you will find the conquerors either Tarshites or close associates of Fazzur (Sor-eel, Gordius Silverus, to a lesser extent Jorkandros Blinder), whereas the punishers seem to be led by Tatius. Tatius' conduct of the siege of Whitewall is a good indicator how he prefers to treat barbarians. It was a Dara Happan (Jorkandros) who ordered the Bat assault on Whitewall.
> Getting back to my original question is it possible for someone
to be
> a member of the "churches" of the 7 Mothers as well as a good storm
fearing
> follower of Orlanth?
Personally, I see no trouble at all with an Orlanthi tribal king in Aggar married to a Lunar treaty wife doubling as Ernalda priestess, and with a Yanafali tribal champion and an Etyries herald besides their Lhankor Mhy Lawspeaker. Bolthor Hairybreeks of the Bilini had no problems with this, either.
This might well carry over to rural Tarsh where the Lunar pervasion is yet weaker (e.g. around Dunstop, which produced Annstad as a fairly common Orlanthi prince-hero). I doubt that Furthest has many resident followers of Orlanth.
One thing I am still puzzled about is the tribal organisation in Tarsh. We know that there existed at least the kernels for the three tribes of the Alone tribal federation (invited there by Terasarin after the fall of Bagnot 1582, ending the era of "free Tarsh" except around Wintertop).
Around Wintertop, we know the Marantaros and Iristaros tribes from Tarsh
War (had a session again last weekend, and enjoyed it...).
On the other hand, in KoS the Hendarli or Hendart clan is instrumental in destroying Mularik Ironeye, and Fazzur is of the Orindori clan, but in either case no tribe is given. In Fazzur's bio (e.g. on the website) his father is said to have been a duke of Tarsh.
This has made me assume that - not unlike Heortland - in Tarsh there are
both smaller, Alakoring-type tribes (no city confederations in Sartar style, I think these are a specific Sartarite phenomenon neither found in Heortland) and one "national" tribe, including the Orindori and Hendarli clans which may be quite oversized, too.
Peter Metcalfe replied to Adam Betteridge before I had a chance. Much agreement snipped.
>>When the leaders begin to follow these ideas people follow >>them in increasing numbers if it works. This begins a breakdown in >>traditional Heortish values & customs until after a few generations a >>complete change will have gone about.
> If so, it's taking an inordinately long time to come about. Sylila
> has been Lunarized for yonks but the vast majority of its citizens
> are still recognizably Orlanthi.
True, but the same goes for all subject people of the Empire. The Lunars
don't change the basic tenets of the culture, except where they contradict Lunar doctrine, and most often not by outright stamping on them but by offering a more attractive alternative. Thus you still have Turos, Bisosi or Lodrili peasants in some parts of the Empire and Orlanthi peasants in Sylila.
> I think both Heartlanders and Tarshites have their good sides and bad
> when dealing with the Sartarites. The problem is that currently they
> are squabbling for control and the Sartarites are getting the worst
> of both worlds.
Very true. Sartar is a battlefield for rivaling philosophies. I do notice that under Tarshite leadership all rebellions were localized (e.g. the Dundealos revolt), whereas the huge uprisings all happened under Dara Happan rulership. This seems to indicate that the Tarshites are more adept in channeling the atrocities against one chosen target tribe than the Heartlanders.
But if the Lunars were using Sartarite converts to rule over other tribes than their own, those tribes would certainly fare even worse than
they do under Tarshite/Heartlander bad cop/worse cop policy.
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #566
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