> >Why is it essential that all of Garundyer's Iron Council must be new
> >aquaintances, the people he knows for longer are more likely to have
> >accompanied him on HeroQuests and thereby gaining their own share of
> >power and glory.
>
> You are treating Heroquests as simple adventures.
Why do you say that? I think of them more as really really complicated adventures (aka the Sankgreal) - as well as rituals, and mythical re-enactments. Personalyl in this case I was referring to the HeroQuests that defined Garundyer as a person in relation to his community.
>Look at the
> rest of Gloranthan heroes and see how many have childhood buddies
> among their boon companions who partake in their quests? I can only
> think of Keener Than who has now become Sir Ethilrist's enemy.
Fine. Here is a Hero who has one. What is the problem exactly with him knowing Harandos in his childhood?
> >It is an Orlanthi stereotype to say that all feuds never end - even
> >in Icelandic sagas we have examples of Feuds, really viscious blood
> >feuds, ending quite amiably (frex, "Thorstein Staff Struck").
>
> And this has what to do with Owain's UnOrlanthi behaviour? All
> he does is make a sign of forgiveness and serves Garundyer ever
> afterwards as a Sword Thane.
Again, we are talking about a set of notes. The question that need to be answered are "Why does Garundyer save Owain's daughter?" - merely ending a feud between two people is not UnOrlanthi behaviour, at least not IMO. Why does Owain follow Garundyer? Because once the feud has ended, once the bloodlust has faded, Owain sees that Garundyer is fated for something big, in combination with the fact that Garundyer has just saved his daughter - perhaps there are other circumstances as well, suggestions? I think Al Harrison's description of events would be quite close to the way it should be.
> >Garundyer is not meant, IMHO, to have internal problems of a major
> >sort - I see Garundyer as being the perfect Orlanthi Hero welcome
> >EVERYWHERE.
>
> Why do you assume this? He's an Orlanthi Hero, not someone
> welcome everywhere. As such a big guy, he's bound to have
> some people envious of his success or who have a grudge
> against him. He's not the King, so people aren't obliged to
> be nice to him.
No, certainly not obliged. But he is Garundyer, one step away from being an Orlanthi god : ) He is the best, he is perfect, he kicks ass, he is sickengly Orlanthi, he is ridculously powerful, he is all of these things. Wouldn't YOU be nice to him?
I don't think anyone actively opposses Garundyer, whether they like him or not.
> >Do people hate him? No! How can you hate the one man that
> >symbolises your entire community - the community of Lankst
> >itself!
>
> I think King Kochalong has a far more valid claim to symbolizing
> Lankst.
How? Surely he has a very valid claim for representing his family, but the entire of Lankst? Surely Kochalong is the man who would be wrought by factional disputes and blood feuds? Surely this is the man who would be lacking in Generosity?
> And given the nature of Orlanthi society, it is bound
> to be riven by factional disputes.
Garundyer's family is dead, he's spent all of his life beating up other people in the name of the Jofrain Confederation for the good of Lankst and is generally out of touch with normal culture. Who's he going to be in dispute with?
>For the Orlanthi to be
> united behind someone who isn't their King seems false to me and
> it would be a major cause of concern for the King of Lankst, whose
> claim to power rests not on the fact that he's well-loved but that
> he and his brothers can breath fire against his enemies. Already
> we've identified someone who could hate Garundyer.
Garundyer is the embodiment of Lankst's attempts to stand untied i.e. the Jofrain Confederation.
> >he stands for the Orlanthi of the entire of
> >Lankst, his threats are mainly (though not wholly) external i.e.
> >Hsunchen, Dragonewts and Otkorioni (curse, spit, curse).
>
> I'm dubious about his hatred of the Otkorioni given that the
> latter manage to defeat Sentanos with Sigolf Cloudcrusher, a
> spirit liberated by Garundyer himself.
Something I'm sure Garundyer was violently pissed off about. To Garundyer, IMO, the Otkorioni are the worst threat of all - we already know that there are wars between Surkorion/Lankst and Otkorion, over religious matters, and that the Church is slowly trying to spread its influence northwwards. Well, here we have a threat to the Orlanthi life style, dump being a Lanksti, become an Otkorioni, build cities, live in cities, live in a Caste system, worship some bizarre Inivisible God, hell we'll even teach you sorcery which isn't soul sucking evil magics like the Wind Lords and Storm Voices always say it is. Honest. To me, the Otkorioni are hated by the Lanksti, and Garundyer is a Lanksti and meant to defend Lankst. Therefore, he defends against the Otkorioni. This, I think, is Garundyers "big problem". I may be mistaken (and if I am, sorry) but in Hero Wars magic will somehow be repsented by keywords such as "anti Lunar" wtc... Garundyer possesses great Anti-Dragonewt and Anti-Hsunchen magics but has nothing in magics used to defeat the Otkorioni. He is a physical man, and the Otkorioni are invading theologically, to Garundyer, they are his bane, his enemy, and his possible eventual downfall.
> >Owains hatred was great, Garundyer actions and Owains forgiveness were
> >exceptional, but for the greater good, and all Heroes are meant to be
> >exceptional.
>
> Saying the event was 'exceptional' does not excuse that what you have
> currently told us about it is pallidly unconvincing behaviour for
> Orlanthi. Why should Owain forgive Garundyer for "the greater good",
> a notion unheard of in Orlanthi society? "Greater Good? How many
> cattle is that worth?". Orlanthi are _proud_ and caving in unilaterally
> is a sign of weakness. Garundyer's depicted actions are not heroic as
> he is simply an object of Owain's unorlanthi act.
Let's change the word "forgiveness" (which I'm sure isn't an orlanthi word) and replace it with "end the blood feud and settle their differences".
> >> A more Orlanthi way would have Owain be one of Garundyer's companions
> >> who dares to suggest that they retreat before an onslaught of Telmori.
> >> Garundyer would then say "What? Without a scratch" and kneecap Owain
> >> for his impertinence.
>
> >A bit too cruel for the Orlanthi Hero I envisage.
>
> Mercy is another virtue that Orlanth doesn't commend to his
> worshippers...
How's that Mercy? To me kneecapping someone is a bit brutal, and to an Orlanthi it could seem that way too. Unneccessary cruelty isn't a trait I connect with the Orlanthi. Sure, the guy might not fight alongside Garundyer ever again, but hobbling one of your own for life for a single comment is a bit strong. Possible, but not what I wanted IMO.
> >> Garundyer is liked by Orlanthi because he acts according
> >> to _their_ norms, not christian ones.
>
> >He cares less about reputation, more about Lankst.
>
> An major virtue of Orlanthi society is _honor_. If Garundyer
> does not care about that, then I find it difficult to see how
> Orlanthi can respect him.
I never said he didn't care about honour, just reputation.His reputation grows without him trying to make it grow.
> >As a Hero he sees the Big Picture.
>
> But the Lanksti hillmen can not see this big picture.
That's why you need Heroes.
> If Garundyer
> starts acting weird, then they will distrust him.
Defending them from ills and walking the wind paths isn't acting weird.
> Acting for them
> means that he acts according to their expectations, _not_ diregard
> them on the pretext that he is acting for an invisible greater good
> of Lankst.
What expectations are we talking about here? That he should kill Owain? That wouldn't be a universal Orlanthi expectation.
> >> Garundyer
> >> could have quite happily disobeyed pop in these circumstances
> >> with little or no shame.
>
> >He could have. But it is not neccessary that he does so - Garundyer
> >could just as easily have respected his fathers decision.
>
> Leaving him open to a charge of being a coward in later life. Surely
> such a great hero could have stood and saved his father back then?
> You do see now what happens if one starts ignoring the Orlanthi
> virtues?
I like IUL Labour's (????) comment that he was trying to save the kids.
> >> Yet Garundyer is felt to be an epitome of an Orlanthi Hero while
> >> he is still alive. Hence I do feel it appropiate for him to kill
> >> the Telmori Shaman.
>
> >I believe that it would be fallacious to have all acts and actions
> >accomplished by Garundyer.
>
> Why not? This is an article _about_ Garundyer. Argrath kills
> tax-collectors at a young age. Rastalulf is similarly precocious.
> Having him mollycoddled detracts from his prowess.
Why? Why not? In the end it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Why must Garundyer neccessarily do everything? He doesn't HAVE to do it. And I don't think he's being mollycoddled, he convinces Rioneyth to take up the sword alongside him, just because he doesn't strike the killing blow doesn't mean that Garundyer wasn't responsible.
All IMO,
Nikk E.
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