Garundyer

From: Nikk Effingham <ENG7NJE_at_arts-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:57:20 GMT


Perhaps I should start this mail off with a little disclaimer, the reason that I posted my basic notes on Garundyer was not to set a definitive vision of him, nor challenege Gloranthan authority in any way, it was to put a few ideas on the Digest, swim them around a bit, iron out a few wrinkles, and most importantly try and get other peoples ideas on this otherwise boring hero in an attempt to make him a very interesting character (frex, I am eagerly awaiting the Rise of Ralios description). It was not put up to waste bandwidth or subject myself to deriding comments. I never claimed to say that the notes were comprehensive, or that every single line was packed with pertinent information - they were, are, just notes.  

> > > You are treating Heroquests as simple adventures.
>
> >Why do you say that?
>
> Because you imply that a hero's best companions are those who has
> been adventuring with him for longest.

I can't actually remember where this portion of debate sprang from. Basically, I do not think that HeroQuests are simple adventures, because I don't believe in simple adventures - all adventures are complicated. If you're claiming that HeroQuests are, to my eyes, merely high level AD&D dungeon bashes then, no, they are not (although, feasbily, can be if you so wish). As for the Heroes companions, I would say that a heroes closest companions would be those he had known for longest, IF they were his companions, and not just people he knew. For instance, a man that has seen all the trials of your life and been with you all the way is a man you will be close to, but Bob the Blacksmith, who you may have known since you were two but couldn't even tell you what your favourite drink is, is not. I hope I cleared that up.

> >Fine. Here is a Hero who has one. What is the problem exactly with
> >him knowing Harandos in his childhood?
>
> Because most heroes do not pack their boon companions with their
> childhood buddies or people whom "he knows for longer are more
> likely to have accompanied him on HeroQuests and thereby gaining
> their own share of power and glory."

Fine. But Harandos is not just some piddly childhood buddy or useless tag along. What I meant by the line you quote is that when Garundyer has succeeded, Harandos has been there, at his side, is a known face, a known person, a person whom tales are told of as Garundyer's Knowing Companion. I do not understand your argument, basically you are saying "No man, whether he is worthy or not, suitable or not, may become a boon companion to a Hero if he has known him for more than (x) years"

> > > And this has what to do with Owain's UnOrlanthi behaviour? All
> > > he does is make a sign of forgiveness and serves Garundyer ever
> > > afterwards as a Sword Thane.
>
> >Again, we are talking about a set of notes.
>
> You keep whining this but do nothing to suggest plausible motivations
> for either Garundyer or Owain. Regardless of whethers it's a set of
> notes or a full-blown novel, this is a defect in your characterisation
> of Garundyer and I should not have to endure tiresome protestations
> about pointing this out.

Besides taking offensive to the idea that I am "whining", I do not understand that you fail to see that these notes are not complete, have holes in them, both big and small, some of which you have helped me with (i.e. the wyrm, which now seems to me to be rather blatantly out of place) - you seem to be running two seperate arguments, one that my note are incomplete and one that all Orlanthi misgivings must end in bloodshed, death and carnage. The later I do not agree with, the former I'll heratily admit, if my notes were complete I would have posted them directly to my webpage rather seeking the Digest's creative input.

> >The question that need
> >to be answered are "Why does Garundyer save Owain's daughter?" -
> >merely ending a feud between two people is not UnOrlanthi behaviour,
> >at least not IMO.
>
> So why does Garundyer save the daughter of his worst enemy? Not
> something that your average Orlanthi would do.

Fine, if you wait for a week or so I shall formulate a complete description of that portion of the tale.

> >No, certainly not obliged. But he is Garundyer, one step away from
> >being an Orlanthi god : ) He is the best, he is perfect, he kicks
> >ass, he is sickengly Orlanthi, he is ridculously powerful, he is all
> >of these things. Wouldn't YOU be nice to him?
>
> All I can say is that you have absolutely no feel for what Orlanthi
> heroes are like. Garundyer is not a lawful good paladin to quote
> the other game and people are not obliged to be nice to him. Consider
> Argrath and Kallyr for example.

I have a feeling that my comments were perhaps misleading in that they emphasised Garundyer as a game-stat construct than as a Hero. Garundyer is unlike Kallyr and Argrath, he does not come from a society as fragmented as theirs, one torn by war and sides, by enroaching forces, by resistances against the Lunars. _I_ envisage Garundyer as the man who IS Lankst, YOMV.  

> >Garundyer's family is dead, he's spent all of his life beating up
> >other people in the name of the Jofrain Confederation for the good of
> >Lankst and is generally out of touch with normal culture. Who's he
> >going to be in dispute with?
>
> Huh? Why on earth would Garundyer act for the Good of Lankst
> if he doesn't have any kin? He would be someone like Harrek
> the Berserk and wander the world instead if he had no kin.

Why must he? If his family have all died at the hands of the Telmori his hatred would be very strong. Perhaps he may have gone off wandering Glorantha if Rioneyth didn't take him under his wing. I think I may (or may not) reconsider whether Garundyer is out of touch with Orlanthi society. I could imagine him as being either.

> > > For the Orlanthi to be
> > > united behind someone who isn't their King seems false to me and
> > > it would be a major cause of concern for the King of Lankst, whose
> > > claim to power rests not on the fact that he's well-loved but that
> > > he and his brothers can breath fire against his enemies. Already
> > > we've identified someone who could hate Garundyer.
>
> >Garundyer is the embodiment of Lankst's attempts to stand untied i.e.
> >the Jofrain Confederation.
>
> And this meaningless statement refutes the fact that the King could
> hate Garundyer in what way?

Having followed this through a little, I concur, it would be very intriguing to have the King have some form of emnity against Garundyer, although I don't feel that Garundyer can be the Hero of Lankst that he is supposed to be if the King (and everyone following him) wants to whip off his head and feud with Garundyer's Iron Council.

> > > I'm dubious about his hatred of the Otkorioni given that
the > > > latter manage to defeat Sentanos with Sigolf Cloudcrusher, a
> > > spirit liberated by Garundyer himself.
>
> >Something I'm sure Garundyer was violently pissed off about.
>
> So why doesn't Garundyer hate the person who gave Otkorion
> the secrets of Sigolf Cloudcrusher? Who was the person
> who gave them these secrets?

Well, I'm sure he does hate the person who stole the secrets. I don't know who this person is, I've never ever considered it, nor given it any thought whatsoever. Suggestions for a likely candidate would be very helpful.

> >we
> >already know that there are wars between Surkorion/Lankst and
> >Otkorion, over religious matters, and that the Church is slowly
> >trying to spread its influence northwwards.
>
> We do? The Surkorioni (kindred to the Otkorioni) have joined
> Lankst recently and the ToTRM/Tradetalk set of freeforms seem
> to think that Otkorion sacked the Galvosti of Valantia with
> the aid of Lanksti barbarians.

The Surkorioni are also involved in a war with Otkorion which is later won by Sir Harm of the Proud Lance - I've always had the impression that Surkorion was Orlanthi barbarians rather than civilised Otkorioni. Plus, IMO, the Otkorioni do indeed have friends withink Lankst, families and clans that deal with them, or have even accepted their religion for politcal or theological reasons. These would be the barbarians who helped sack Valantia. This is the whole problem, Lanksti turning into Henotheists! Will this be an eventual cause of war within Lankst? Possibly, but it would probably mean an end to Lankst, whatever would be left after such a war wouldn't be worth talking about.

> > > >Owains hatred was great, Garundyer actions and Owains forgiveness were
> > > >exceptional, but for the greater good, and all Heroes are meant to be
> > > >exceptional.
>
> >Let's change the word "forgiveness" (which I'm sure isn't an orlanthi
> >word) and replace it with "end the blood feud and settle their
> >differences".
>
> If it walks like a duck...

So in your opinion no Orlanthi ever has, within the history of Glorantha, settled a feud for any reason and not been seen as being very odd.

> Yeah so? Orlanth does not care whether his worshippers are
> kind or cruel. To object to Garundyer kneecapping a companion
> on the grounds that it is unorlanthi is specious. Besides _your_
> version of Garundyer had no inhibitions about crippling Owain
> mercilessly as a result of defeating him in a duel. So can you
> explain why one is acceptable to your ideal while the other is not?

Good point. Perhaps Garundyer is the kind of person to cripple one of his allies.  

> >I never said he didn't care about honour, just reputation.His
> >reputation grows without him trying to make it grow.
>
> Reputation is synonymous with honor in Orlanthi society. To acquire
> a good reputatution mandates that Garundyer act honorably according
> to Orlanthi ideals amongst other things.

Settling a feud surely does not entail dishonour. It just means that he's spent a little time listening to an Ernaldan worshipper.

> >What expectations are we talking about here? That he should kill
> >Owain? That wouldn't be a universal Orlanthi expectation.
>
> If you hadn't interjected (deleted) inane one-liners then you
> would have seen that the paragraph was the conclusion of a
> rebuttal to your absurd notion that Garundyer can ignore honor
> and still be an Orlanthi hero.

I've never suggested that Garundyer ignore Honour. Even if he did lose face by settling a feud with Owain perhaps he did anyway.  

> >I like IUL Labour's (????) comment that he was trying to save the
> >kids.
>
> If he had killed the Telmori, which as a child prodigy, he was entirely
> capable of doing so then he could have saved his father and the Telmori.

Garundyer, his dad, a few warriors, twenty three children versus one hundred and thirty six Telmori led by five shamans gathered together for one huge plunder into Lankst. If I put numbers like that to the odds we can see why Garundyer saved the kids and did a runner while his father and a few warriors fought them back.

> If it doesn't make the "blind bit of difference" why don't you just
> quit wasting people's time and ignore what they say, eh?

Because I want to hear what people have to say, people's input, ideas and visions of Garundyer as a person to make him more than just a boring "lawful good paladin" or its Orlanthi equivalent. I don't want Garundyer to be the perfect Orlanthi or a flawless individual, I want him to have flaws and have twists both in his personality and his history. That is why I am talking about it. By "blind bit of difference" I meant that story-wise it didn't matter. At all.

> >Orlanthi are NOT
> >Icelanders, correct, but certainly they have elements of their
> >culture (i.e. weregeld, blood feuding etc...) to which Icelandic and
> >related literature (i.e. Beowulf) make a great source
>
> Since I have never denied that the Orlanthi have blood-feuding
> and weregilds, I fail to see the relevance of this passage.

To show that there is some relation between the Orlanthi and Icelandic myths and legend.  

All IMHO

Nikk E.  


End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #588


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