Nature and Frontiers of Glorantha

From: Julian Lord <julian.lord_at_wanadoo.fr>
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:49:59 +0200


Simon Hibbs:

> >> >But the LBQ *changed* the nature of death.
> >>
> >> That's a new one on me.
> >
> >It's not new at all; it changed the nature of Yelm's death (ie he
> >became alive once more) [...]
>
> Of course, but I still don't see how this changes death. Discovering a way
> to treat victims of an otherwise lethal poison does not change the nature
> of the poison. The poison is still lethal. I don't see how death itself was
> changed at all by the LBQ. People struck down by it still died in exactly
> the same way before as after.

I don't like your poison analogy.

It's Myth that's under discussion here, not biology.

So, methods for dying were basically the same pre- and post- LBQ ... Whacking Yelm over the head with a sword; doing the same thing to your player character; = death.
Not what I'm talking about.

The mythic consequences, as well as the possible historic consequences of death were altered. If your basic death mythology changes, then the way that a culture thinks of death also changes, which in turn changes the nature of death for that culture.

You know, it's a complex issue.

Greg has divided the cosmos into three worldviews: the mundane, the divine, the mystic.
>From the mundane POV, Gloranthan death is like RW death, except that it's

occasionally curable, much as you've suggested.

>From the divine POV, it's a transmutable heroquest path.
>From the mystic POV, it's a transient state of consciousness.
        (Perhaps, the *moment* of transience,
        and an instance of high mystic awareness.)

I was discussing death from the LBQ POV, which should have appeared obvious.

> Certainly your previous premise that death and
> True Death by chaos were the same thing before the LBQ is clearly false.

Whether false or not, the issue isn't as clear cut as you suggest.

Entropy acts outside the hero paths. There's no return from it, because it leads nowhere. A HQ like the LBQ creates a path for an entropic event, redefines the Hero Plane/God Plane so as to contain the event, and effectively transmutes the previously entropic phenomenon into a Myth. Not easy, I should add.

>From the purely mundane (Brithini) or Chaotic POVs, this is merely an act of
consciousness, and observers have no influence on the nature of phenomena. From the religious, and particularly the LBQ (which I adopted for my argument) POVs, the nature of reality is defined by divinity.

Now, if you dislike the suggestion that all death during the Greater Darkness was True Death, that's OK by me. However, Greg pointed out at the Convulsion that when a god is on a GodQuest, his magical powers are unavailable to his worshippers. Chalana Arroy went on the LBQ, and after a while (ie after Arroin had the crap beaten out of him), no divine methods of healing were available (if you were an Orlanthi; remember, this is the LBQ POV). If the Arroini couldn't heal you, and the shamans couldn't either, you were dead meat.

*I* think that the idea of all death = Entropy during this period to be a nifty cosmological mirror of this.

*I* like the idea that life was absolutely miserable, hopeless, and dreadful during the Greater Darkness; and that death was very, very bad. In fact, entropic.

If you wish to ignore these suggestions next time you set a campaign, or an adventure, during the Greater Darkness, that's no skin off my nose ...

> >> >Post-LBQ death being death with an After Life; Golden Age death
> >> >being death which leads to some sort of existence in Hell;
> >>
> >> Er, there's a difference?
> >
> >I see one ... YGMV
>
> If you coudl explain what this difference that you see is, then at least
> I could have an opinion on it.

Basically, the difference between Heaven and Hell. There are various possible afterlives, but before the LBQ, there was just eternal, hopeless misery in Hell.

> >Anyway, if the Devil came from outside Glorantha, then it _isn't_ a
> >closed world, contrary to recent suggestions ... :-)
>
> But it is not a closed world in a completely different sense to the one
> being used in the Questworld discussion. If it is possible to travel
> to Questworld from Glorantha, then Questworld has a phsyical existence
> outside glorantha in the normal everyday sense. i.e. in the same way that
> my flat exists outside my office. Chaos does not seem to have a phsyical
> existence outside glorantha in the same way, so I think it's unhelpful
> to link the two discussions.

erm, it was a feeble attempt at paradox, but given the continuing discussion it's probably better that it was taken somewhat seriously.

Chaos has some sort of physical existence outside Glorantha.

I'm not sure that Questworld was definitely meant to have normal everyday physical existence at a certain measurable distance from Glorantha. One may have had to do a Dormal heroquest to get there or something; sail off the edge of the world or something like that ... details are hazy, perhaps mingled with my own notions; there was something in an old White Dwarf article, IIRC ...

As far as closed worlds go, I think that the appearance and disappearance and possible return of the Pharaoh are left to each GM's discretion by Greg? One possibility is that he's a non-Gloranthan (the Pharaoh, that is; *not* Greg !).

Also, did any of the Outer Atomic Explorers reach other worlds?

> >IMO, any rule can only be a properly Gloranthan one if it has (more or
> >less uncommon) exceptions. Now, a Star Trek "away team" beaming down
> >to Glorantha would be shoving the envelope... John Carter wouldn't
> >disturb the consistency of Glorantha in the same way, because the
> >character has less internal consistency of his own, or is already
> >defined as a Stranger from Another World ...
>
> I think he would. For John Carter to arrive in Glorantha he must have come
> via some route. That route must be part of Glorantha.

Several plot devices to effect this travel spring to mind.

Anyway, with Hero Wars it's all so much easier.

You use a key-word.

> To a Gloranthan, Elric is no more real than he is to us in our world.

Not precisely true. Elric has reality in our world as a fictional character, and a physical appearance in reality seems unlikely. No Gloranthan has read Mr Moorcock's fictions, though (unless this Gloranthan has travelled to a fictional counterpart of the RW where such works can be read), and so a journey by Elric to some part of Glorantha is at least conceivable. If I wanted it, after all, it could happen in my next game (but it won't).

Anyway, Elric, not being defined as a fictional character in Glorantha, isn't defined by a real/fictional dichotomy; rather by existent/non-existent. Is Glorantha part of the Multiverse, or not?

> For him to spontaneously appear in Glorantha would have just
> the same implications
> for Glorantha as it would have for our world if he literaly popped into
> existence here, complete with soul stealing doom sword.

What implications are these?

As defined by Moorcock, Elric could, in fiction, do both of these things, with no implications whatsoever.
He *does* have some sort of Plane Traveller keyword, doesn't he ... ?


End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #596


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