> Joerg Baumgartner:
>
> >There have been independent clans for much of the Quivini history, with
> >increasing tribal strength, some of them may logically have taken refuge
> >in the multi-tribal cities rather than join a single clan.
>
> Which would be a noticable event for most cities. 500-1000 people taking
> refuge in a city is going to cause immense strain considering that of the
> Sartarite cities, only Jonstown, Aldachur and Boldhome have populations
> above 2000. Secondly an unaligned clan entering the grounds of a tribal
> confederation can be expected to be treated as invaders.
Like the Third Eye Blue people, for instance?
> Julian Lord:
>
> >> I doubt that any such clans [belonging to cities] exist. Why on earth
> >> would anybody on the City Ring pay attention to them?
>
> I should point out that the Mayor represents the people of the City
> in the City Ring. But she would not need clan chiefs acting as
> intermediaries to do her job.
No, it's the other way round : she is the intermediary between the important citizens/families/clans and the other Magistrates of the City, Kingdom, and Tribes.
> >Because if not, they would riot, and otherwise disrupt the smooth workings
> >of Orlanthi city politics?
>
> I'm sorry but in Orlanthi societies, politics is hardly smooth and
> a riot is barely indistinguishable from a Storm Bull holy day feast
> IMO. The Orlanthi are rowdy boisterous people.
I meant "smooth" with a ;-) attached, of course ...
> >But the Cults exist,
>
> Let's have a look at these cults. Orlanth and Ernalda's cults are
> the kings and chiefs that we have been discussing. Chalana Arroy
> can be safely ignored as to participate in Orlanthi politics
> requires that one be prepared to spill a little blood. Issaries is
> strong among the shop keepers and the guilds but IMO their cult
> politics are as unruly as a clan moot and split along clan and
> tribal lines. Lhankor Mhy can always be controlled by threatening
> to torch their library if they don't watch out. Humakti are too
> obsessed with death to be interested in politics while Storm Bullies
> are too drunk to ever have a coherent political platform. Any other
> cult is so small that it can easily be driven out of town or simply
> destroyed leaving the turbulent priest bleeding in a ditch somewhere.
>From my own experience of RW City politics, such violent means of controlling
dignitaries is very unusual (but not unheard of). The normal method used to control
factions is to involve them financially in whatever wheeler deals the City Ring is
involved in. Individuals are unlikely to rebel against their own financial
interests, except for exceptional instances where a higher sense of morality is
engaged. Most such instances of High Morality
imply consultation of and identification with their Community ...
I don't believe that the violent methods of political control that you suggest for the Sartarite Orlanthi are at all realistic, frankly. Such are methods that might be used by the Vadrudi, or Gagarthi, or Uraini, etc ... If used in Boldhome (except when warranted by an *extremely* volatile political situation), or any other Sartarite city, you would end up with the Balkanisation of Sartar and a state of terrible civil war.
> >and the Prince would certainly make sure that the
> >Gustbran smiths tithed directly to him, rather than via the Tribes.
>
> Why would the Prince want to do this?
To simplify Administration, and to make sure that his supplies were as little affected as possible by the vagaries of inter-Tribal politics.
> His army is levied from
> the Tribes and he runs the country with Tribal Advice. The
> Prince isn't some absolutist despot.
Certainly not. I didn't wish to suggest that City and Tribal politics were completely divorced !
This is interesting, and the Tribes are *certainly* in control of Sartar military
forces, which means that the Tribal Kings, ultimately, have power over the Prince.
But, the Cities only make sense, politically, if the Tribes have permanently
surrendered portions of real political power to the City Rings, which would have
power in these domains even over the Tribal Kings, as long as the Tribe is a member
of the coalition. Probably, there are
independant City militias which are independant of the Tribes. Basically, police
forces.
Ultimately, much would depend on the personality and political skills of the individual Prince. A strong and politically magnetic Prince could probably run Sartar virtually as a monarch; a weak and incompetent one would be not much more than a glorified scorekeeper of petty inter-Tribal quarrels.
> >> There's no palace of the Tribal King of Boldhome
> >> in Boldhome.
>
> >These are probably the city Mayors we're talking about, you know, as Jane
> >pointed out.
>
> There's no mayoral palace either.
But there are Mayors.
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