>>There have been independent clans for much of the Quivini history, >>with increasing tribal strength, some of them may logically have >>taken refuge in the multi-tribal cities rather than join a single >>clan.
> Which would be a noticable event for most cities.
True. I blame Alex for infecting my thinking with "fringe clans" or "clanlettes" during our cruise through Germany...
There is one published case of the Sanchali triibe (!) who settled down in various cities as a "guild" known as the Cult of Geo.
Another proposed case (which I haven't checked yet whether the proposal reflects official Glorantha) is Ingo Tschinke's write-up of the Jonstown clan in Heroes of Wisdom.
> 500-1000 people
> taking refuge in a city is going to cause immense strain
> considering that of the Sartarite cities, only Jonstown, Aldachur
> and Boldhome have populations above 2000.
True. A full-strength clan would be beyond any single city's capability, excepting Boldhome. OTOH, a full-strength clan is less in need of refuge than the battered remnants of a clan which has suffered from say Telmori action in 1607 - enough people to maintain a tradition, too few to hold on to their lands. I don't know if this did happen, but I see no reason why it could not.
> Secondly an unaligned clan entering the grounds of a tribal
> confederation can be expected to be treated as invaders.
Or thralls, or "mercenaries" - also economically, say remnants of a clan which continues a tradition of crafting after losing the resources for farming and herding.
>>The urban settlers brought in by Sartar from Heortland won't have >>joined local clans or formed their own but organized into the >>guilds we found mentioned in old sources.
> and:
>>Definitely not, or Sartar would never have been able to import the >>specialist craftspeople he needed for his vision of his principality.
> What urban settlers? I think the Sartarites were sophisticated enough
> to form guilds by themselves after Sartar had showed them how
> considering that they formed the cities.
Sartar did indeed send a call for artisans and skilled workers to Heortland when he founded his principality.
> Secondly Sartar built Boldhome with the
> aid of the dwarves and not Heortland architects.
Yes. What about Wilmskirk and all the other, earlier cities, though? Do you really think that the rural tribes of dragon Pass retained any skill of masonry needed for creating more than reinforced drystone walls?
> I'm not sure that I agree with the expert opinion that
> heortlanders were needed to make the cities of sartar great.
There are certain crafts - besides the aid of the Mostali - which the local craftspeople could not provide.
> There's nothing to prevent the Heortlanders from moving into
> Dragon Pass before Sartar and taking up work for the various
> tribal kings and chiefs.
You're perfectly right - any prestigious tribal king or chieftain would keep a skilled craftsperson or two in their retinue. This is probably how the gates of Runegate were made, by "mercenary" craftsmen joining a powerful household just like housecarls would.
However, Sartar's vision required these skills on a much larger scale than the rural Quivini tribes had - building and maintenance of the royal highways alone took more specialist stone workers than the Quivini can have boasted before Sartar.
> What Sartar did IMO was to provide
> a means for the city to grow beyond a certain limit as
> everything else was already there.
Yes, be freeing the craftspeople from taking allegiance with a single leader, and catering for several at the same time. Still, his city-building was a logistical effort comparable to Edward Longshank's castle building in Wales, and while he had Mostali aid, that alone should not account for the great efforts.
We know for certain that there were plenty of human workers involved in his city construction, or otherwise Saronil could not have affronted the Mostali with his construction of a temple to Orlanth using their technology.
Peter replying to Julian:
> I'm sorry but in Orlanthi societies, politics is hardly smooth and
> a riot is barely indistinguishable from a Storm Bull holy day feast
> IMO.
In fact, too much of clan presence in a city, and you get a Montague vs.
Capulet situation with good old Orlanthi blood feud within your city.
A riot is different in that it is not your neighbourhood biker gang destroying your home, but your normally meek neighbour crafters.
Julian:
>>But the Cults exist, >>and the Prince would certainly make sure that the >>Gustbran smiths tithed directly to him, rather than via the Tribes.
Peter:
> Why would the Prince want to do this? His army is levied from
> the Tribes and he runs the country with Tribal Advice. The
> Prince isn't some absolutist despot.
In my personal opinion, the house of Sartar was funded by the Issaries cult in the form of road and gate tolls mainly. More important than tithes from the tribes would have been work on the royal projects, both building and maintaining roads and fortifications.
End of The Glorantha Digest V6 #655
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