>I do not think there are any named Emperors, (the only
>individual being the Dragon Emperor of Dara Happa),
There are the Dragonspeakers such as Isangdrang who might have later retired to become part of Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon. Other important names are Usdaros the Impatient, Peranal the Protector and of course Vistikos Lefteye.
However I really don't see these as being "Emperors" but more like Prime Ministers wielding devolved draconic powers.
Bob Stancliff:
Me>> It is not a variant interpretation.
>If two people have different viewpoints, they are variant, by
>definition (QED).
Given that you had previously responded to Ian's statement of the gloranthan orthodoxy as being "This isn't a correct interpretation.", calling my source quotes a variant interpretation carries the connotation of wrongness.
>> reference reveals that "The famous Scholar Wyrm of Heortland
>> voices an old complaint when he says the Kralori claims cannot
>> be, "because the Kralori are humans"." Hence the Dragon Pass
>> 'newts cannot quite stomach Kralorela's existance as it is
>> beyond what they understand about Draconism. (" ??)
>Is this referring to the statement that the Emperor is a Dragon?
No, "Kralorela, the eastern empire, follows an ancient dragon way which is, they say, unchanged since the beginning of time".
>If the Dragonspawn can't tell the difference, how can the Kralori?
>I prefer to believe the Dragonspawn, and consider the Kralori
>statement in Elder Secrets to be a cultural claim, and not necessarily
>a fact.
I'm sorry but the Emperor of Kralorela is a Dragon is about an absolute fact as one can get in Glorantha. It ranks up there with the Moon is Red and the Sky is Blue. Even the Exarchs are Dragons.
>> It doesn't say that they are heretics, it merely says that the
>> western dragonewts considers them to be heretics. After all, the
>> Immanent Masters would hardly call themselves heretics, would
>> they?
>The views clearly disagree (they are at variance).
Nevertheless it does not require that one side must be correct as you imply the Western Dragonewts of being. Given that we cannot say whether Orlanth or the Red Goddess is correct, it is pointless IMO to think that the Dragonewts of Dragon Pass to be the supreme authority on all matters draconic and all those who disagree with them are merely making "cultural claims"
>You seem far more
>willing to attack others than to choose one side and defend it.
An attack being something along the lines of "This isn't a correct interpretation"? I have not attacked Ian's interpretation by saying such a thing, I have merely endeavoured to correct your claim that Ian's understanding of the situation was not correct. I have even refrained from commenting on your opinions about the origins of the Path of Immanent Mastery given that you prefaced them with a disclaimer on them being your own interpretation. So kindly dispense with the chip on your shoulder.
I am simply not interested in whether the Western Dragonewts or the Kralori Dragon Empire hold the better roads to Dragonhood. All that I do believe is statements about either of them being false or even merely being "cultural truths" are fallacious.
>> Secondly if the quote was meant to refer to only bad draconists,
>> surely it would have qualified its statement in some way instead
>> of tarring virtually all kralori priests and magicians?
>Certainly possible, but that would mean that all priests and magicians
>in Kralorela use dragon magics.
If the all is Orlanthi then this statement is true as far as the Kralori are concerned. Everybody has cosmic dragon nature as a result of the Cosmic Dragon's self-dismemberment. In using this nature, one can do magic.
Only the wise are able to use these natures correctly to reattune themselves with the uncreated Cosmic Dragon and thus become Dragons.
Most Kralori can only use them in limited ways for fear of being spiritually contaminated while Foreigners, ignorant of the Cosmic Dragon, abuse them wholesale and mutate themselves into Devils.
>Are there no Chalana Arroy?
Chalana Arroy is not worshipped by the Kralori.
>No grain gods?
The Rice Mother.
>No Hsunchen or spiritists in the mountains?
The Hsunchen are not Kralori.
>Is the Kingdom of Ignorance excluded from this discussion of
>Kralorela?
Yes.
>They have several divine cults, doesn't Kralorela have any?
The fact that a cult is "divine" does not exclude it from being part of the Kralori draconic tradition.
>> >This doesn't change the published fact that there is one or more wings
>> >of mounted Dream-Dragons if Kralorela, although they might be coerced
>> >into service.
>> Was I somehow contradicting this?
>I had believed them to serve willingly, your quote suggests that they
>would have to be coerced.
What quote was this? I was responding to your part-statement that "sometimes" true dragons help Kralorela by pointing out that True Dragons _run_ the government there.
>> I do not think that the Dragon Pass 'newts would know very much
>> about distant Kralorela to distinguish between Good and Bad
>> Draconists there. All they would know is that humans live there
>> practicing dragon magic.
>My readings had lead me to believe (possibly by mistake), that the
>dragons had helped put Godunya on the throne to restore the ancient
>order and destroy the godslearner government. This would have shown
>friendship, or at least tolerance, between the emperor and dragonkind.
Dragon Pass 'newts are not the same as Dragons. Merely because Dragons devoured the False Dragons (and Godunya instigated this) does not mean that the Western Dragonewts did so.
>> Godunya _is_ a True Dragon, cf Elder Secrets p16 where it calls
>> him the "Emperor Dragon". What prevents a Dragon from taking
>> human form, considering that they are capable of so much else?
>While I would not claim it to be impossible, I would claim it to be
>highly unlikely, and wouldn't the Dragonnewts recognize an ancestor?
Kralori Dragons are not ancestral to the Dragon Pass Dragonewts. Their descendants of Kralori Dragons are the teeming masses of Kralorela. Secondly when has a Western Dragonewt ever made it to Kralorela to find out the truth there? Since the Dragonkill War, they have advanced no further than Pavis and that was in the last century.
>Frankly, I can't see a real dragon bothering.
What is a real dragon? There are a number of sections in KoS in which humans combine themselves to become Dragons. In this state, they still are motivated by human concerns.
So real dragons do involve themselves in human affairs. Given the Kralori know secrets to turn themselves into dragons, it is not beyond belief that they would continue to involve themselves in human affairs to guide their less fortunate compatriots towards the Cosmic Dragon.
Instead of thinking Dragons as being grown-up dragonewts (which is the Western Dragonewt Point of View), the Kralori consider Dragons to be spiritually liberated entities akin to RW Buddhas, which is _also_ true.
It would be helpful to consider the hoary buddhist parable of the blind men and the elephant with the elephant as a dragon and the EWF, Kralori, and the various 'newt races as the blind men. (The EWF is dead because he invesitaged the dragon's foot from the underside and got stomped on).
>Elder Secrets is far more
>likely to be presenting another of Greg's cultural truths... the
>Kralorelans believe it, so it is true in Kralorela.
Elder Secrets is the last book that I consider to contain any of Greg's cultural truths.
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #110
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