<<> I did raise this point
> briefly with Greg once, and he seemed not to be very clear about what the
> term 'atheist' actually meant, and hinted that most sorcerers might not
> actually be atheists in the sense of 'people who don't believe in God'.
Well, to return briefly to the Brithini: They believe in a 'Creator', in some sense, but don't believe it's possible/meaningful/morally correct to attempt to 'worship' this entity as such. >>
As I said, deists rather than atheists. Admittedly, it rather depends what they think the Creator *is* - is He an uncaring, distant God (deist) or just a mechanistic process with no identity or self-awareness (atheist)?
<< One can see some 'Malkioni sorcerers' believing much the same, or some intermediate point between that and 'orthodox' Malkionism. >>
Agreed.
<< > Their magic doesn't come from God but (aside, perhaps, from the Brithini
> or other such 'outsider' groups) that doesn't necessarily mean they deny
> His existence.
But 'mainstream' Malkioni magic doesn't come from God either, other than in an indirect and rather philosophical sense. (Assorted forms of saint worship I may have to grant you...) >>
Its those forms of saint worship I was referring to. And they obviously must think prayer serves some purpose (although obviously not one with a direct feedback, as in a Heortling religious service) or they wouldn't do it.
<< > it would be fairly surprising - at least to me - if there aren't
> any deists in it anywhere. As a philosophy, it goes back to ancient
Greece,
> after all...
Pretty much the attitude of God Forgot, no? >>
Could well be; it was Greg who was unsure whether such people existed in Glorantha. IMO, there's bound to be some, and the God Forgotten sound like good candidates. I doubt he'd be hard to persuade of this.
<< > Certainly it appears unnecessary for groups such as the Orlanthi,
> Praxians, etc. Who needs faith when you're transported to the God Plane
every
> holy day?
One might be tempted to think that 'faith' was either the precondition to such experiences, and/or the result of having them, rather than being exclusive with it. >>
Yes, but not in the sense of 'faith' which Phillip was using (and which my dictionary agrees is the most common meaning, BTW). Hence my illustration of the alternative sense of 'faith', for which your above comments are entirely correct, IMO.
<< Phillip:>Nowadays, it means "There's no evidence, but I believe it anyway"
Another notion is that of 'emotional truth': it's so because I feel it ("know" it) to be so, regardless of Positivists banging on about the meaningless of said claims. >>
Seems to me those two statements are the same - the latter just provides the explanation of why 'evidence' isn't needed in order for one to believe. But I digress...
Peter:
<< Now the Brithini are stated to be atheists but they do acknowledge the existence of the Invisible God (Genertela Book p82, ToTRM #13). Hence they are atheists #2. Greg has recently elucidated this by stating that the Brithini believe in an impersonal god (similar, I suppose, to Spinoza's statement that God is the sum of the cosmic laws) whereas most Malkioni believe in a personal god (i.e. Malkion is Logic made Flesh).>>
Which is essentially what I was trying to say (perhaps not very well).
<<> For many of them at least, 'deism' may more accurately describe their >religious beliefs ('God does exist but He doesn't care about us, so prayer >and the like are pointless').
Most Deists did believe that "prayer and the like" were useful. >>
I stand corrected.
<<>[Faith] might, however, be of more significance to the Malkioni (or most >of them, anyway) since, according to RQ, they gain no benefit from their >worship ceremonies.
Incorrect. "..all participants receive spiritual assurance that the magic points donated to their deity were acceptable to him." >>
OK, I should have said 'material benefit'.
Forward the glorious Red Army!
Trotsky
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