Me>>Kralorela is not a state in the traditional sense of the word. Its
>>rulers prefer to govern through goodwill which makes them much weaker
>>than Orlanthi Kings.
> They govern through a massive state and bureaucratic apparatus,
They do not have a massive state and bureaucratic apparatus. There is only one bureaucrat for a thousand people and even if you count in his helpers, then you'll find that Orlanthi are more heavily governed.
Because of their mystical inclination, the rulers shun worldy power and prefer to guide by moral example rather than rule. This works well for the people who adhere to the orthodoxy but it gives greater freedom for dissidents to cause trouble (and to prove to others the error of their ways).
>Its not an oppressive police state
So why were you intent on a gulag system for the punishment of the worst criminals to the extent that you were calling people mistaken for daring to suggest otherwise? And what do the Kralori _now_ use, given that those camps have been abolished for two centuries?
> I agree that the rulers of Kralorela are generally fairly
>benevolent, essentially as the mandarins generally obey their own laws and
>customs, forcing the rulers to be relatively caring and uncorrupt.
> But they do, for example, sack cities for not paying their taxes on
>time.
They do no such thing.
What is actually said was that the City of Sha Ming never pays it taxes on time _and_ has been sacked by the Emperor's armies several times. Now Sha Ming is the capital of Boshan which has collaborated with Sheng Seleris and two major campaigns against the Boshani are known in Godunya's reign alone - one was the "Great Traitorous Drama" that took place after Sheng's second defeat and when he was elsewhere and the second was Imolo Wen's campaign against the last of the Pentans in Boshan.
Hence the Kralori sacking of Sha Ming is not because the taxes were late but because the province was revolting...
>Perhaps they prefer to govern by goodwill, but they clearly don't get
>too hung up on it.
They are too hung up about it. They've had horrific examples of rule by force as per the reigns of ShangHsa and Sheng Seleris.
>>The practitioners of the most hated of
>>deviations, Immanent Mastery, can be found in any city and as a
>>tolerated faith in the army.
> Not THE most hated.
It is the most hated. It ruled Kralorela for a long time and caused massive woe and suffering.
>Though supported by the NDR, the POIM
>did not commit atrocities or brutalise the populace themselves.
The New Dragons Ring were Immanent Masters and they did unspeakable things in their time. They even tried to suppress Gbaji worship according to Cults of Terror.
Furthermore it is not the attitude of the populace in question but the attitude of the _rulers_ who have good reason to detest Immanent Mastery.
>Changes of
>ruler that accompany changes of religion do not always result in the
>demonisation of the previous religion.
But the demonization of Immanent Mastery is a fact.
>>Furthermore the Kralori method of dealing with deviant faiths is
>>encapsulated in the following statement from Troll Gods p29 "Whenever
>>a priest of the Black Sun gains too much prominence, the Kralori
>>rulers of the Kingdom of Ignorance act quickly, working to suppress,
>>oust, or promote the priest to a position of impotence".
> The Black Sun is not a banned religion, in the KOI anyway (it might
>be in Kralorela). The citizens of KOI are allowed to fall into perverse
>spiritual error.
And given the rulers of Ignorance adhered to the same philosophy as the rulers of Kralorela (and over five centuries ago, they were the one and same), it should tell us a lot about how the rulers of Kralorela treat those who fall in spiritual error.
>>If they _really_ hated him then, surely they would have confined
>>him to the instant torture camps without waiting for him to
>>volunteer?
>He was a foreign leader who had honourably surrendered to the Exarchs.
I don't see anything honorable about the surrender. He wouldn't be serving as a common slave if that was the case.
>And they didn't hate him that much, at this point - but they
>didn't like him much either, if he surrenders to the ITC because
>he has a problem with slavery its no skin off their nose.
Which makes a seismic shift what what David was so confidently asserting before: "Sheng was not thrown in there because they wished to help his spiritual progress, but because they wanted to hurt him."
>>And the Kralori are waiting for a hated slave's permisson before
>>they can do anything nasty to him?
>The ITC are not just for every captured foreigner or petty
>criminal. Slavery will do perfectly well for most. But if you refuse
>common slavery, you are just asking for trouble.
He didn't refuse common slavery, he served for two years. But finally he asked if he could join the ITC because he was so consumed with bitterness at his current condition.
>>>But that doesn't mean the torture camps are a primarily mystic
>>>institution - there are a brutal tool of repression and punishment
>>>first.
>>This contradicts massively what is known about Kralori government
>>in general.
>I'd say presuming that the Kralori government would never tolerate
>such a thing contradicts what we know about government in general.
The toleration of the ITCs is not in question - they were tolerated but they no longer are. What is in question is that the _purpose_ of the camps. The Kralori with their philosophy would not be so _crude_ as to operate a terrifying gulag for the purpose of repression and punishment. The mere fact of its existance for that purpose undermines their moral authority.
>And
>presuming that all the people being hideously tortured are there because
>they seek mystic enlightenment, even though most of them just die in
>hideous pain (when there are easier paths to mystic power - most of the
>Zolathi sit around and meditate), is just bizarre.
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