Sorry, but I couldn't resist chiming into this Rathori issue. I don't think the Rathori are immune to the evolution of military tactics, but even the most organized of what I would call RW hsunchen-level peoples simply DO NOT FIGHT in what we would call "formations" - more often the extent of their tactical skills are limited to "this mob go over here, and that mob go over there". They don't NEED tactics, as 1) their opponents are either at the same level, or each other; 2) in confrontations with more advanced cultures they typically LOSE any battle that they are forced into.
IMO probably the most advanced/developed hsunchen-level people faced with a similar technological/doctrinal cusp were the Zulu (and neighbors) in the era of Cha'ka (commonly spelled in the west as Shaka). Faced with a similarly more advanced technology and more advanced (or rather, disciplined/trained) military aggressively expanding into their area, Shaka brilliantly welded the indigenous peoples around the core of a Zulu cadre and tried to teach them the concept of extended tactics. Basically, he failed however. He was able to achieve some great successes but the inability of his successors to continue his programs points more to his individual genius than to his ability to implement a longer-term militaro-cultural change.
The other analogy I'd draw between the Rathori vs. Lunar/Carmanian is probably a pretty close one with the Teutonii (et al) against the pre-Marian Romans. Of course, the Romans didn't have a cataphract-style heavy cav nor really ANY very professional cavalry at all, but I think the parallel here is nonetheless pretty good too.
>
> >They do not have the tradition of standing fast as one
> >people in the face of danger - if knights charge them, the steps they
> >take are bloody great big ones to the nearest cover.
>
> Which would get them severely killed. Firstly we know the Rathori raid
into
> the civilised lands. Secondly we know that they don't run as fast as a
> charing horse, thirdy, we know they would get ridden down if they did
this.
> So why would they raid if this was the case?
>
Which is why they DO get killed, if they stick around to fight. 1) not every Carmanian hamlet is going to have a body of heavy cavalry standing by waiting to charge whatever scum come out of the forest to burn some huts - clearly the impetus in this sort of situation is for the Rathori to pick and choose where they are going to strike, hit hard, and then retreat back into the forest before help arrives. Quite a bit of RW historical support, I'd say, proves that this IS a successful long term strategy as long as the raiders have a friendly and relatively secure place to retreat to, which I think we'd all agree the forest in this circumstance is. I can easily conceive - given the magical advantages the Rathori would have in their home turf - of a Carmanian "Teutoburger Wald" impacting the psychology of Carmanian generals for decades if not centuries. 2) why would they engage in raiding in any circumstances that would allow a horseman to have any chance at them? There are a number of logical tactics that the Rathori could engage in (long before they'd bother with formations, lines, volley fire, etc) that would tip the balance of power in their favor against Carmanians. Firstly considering that the Rathori are probably as comfortable operating at night as day, they'd raid in the middle of the night which alone would negate the majority of the horsemen's advantage. Secondly, I live on the so-called "Great Plains" and would argue that even here there is a great deal of terrain that is NOT suited to horse tactics. Given that most villages (the targets of raids, typically) would be situated on streams or rivers, the terrain around such would be typically rougher, more wooded, and generally unfriendly to even small scale employment of mounted units.
> >I don't believe the Rathori even bother with fire arrows _en masse_ as it
> serves no
> >useful purpose in their lifestyle.
>
> Other than a very logical and militarily standard step of helping them
> survive? Come on Peter, do you honestly believe that they can be raiding
> civilised lands without picking up some form of military learning? I've
no
> real world example where a culture who interacted with another militarily
> failed to do this, IF their tactics were getting them butchered.
>
Why would they bother with fire arrows? What a major pain in the a$$ they would be for a skirmishing/raiding force like the Rathori. It's inconceivable that they would engage in the sorts of setpiece battles that I think are being imagined here. They'd be slaughtered. I don't think it's credible that any mostly-missile force (no matter how skilled) can engage in any but skirmish/sniping without the support of a heavily armed (and more importantly heavily armored) body of infantry. To get back to the point, fire arrows can be employed effectively by beseiged defenders, but it is fairly infrequent - Hollywood movies notwithstanding - that attackers would employ fire arrows. The logistics of lighting a fire, keeping it lit, and the complications of bearing pitch-soaked arrows make it just not worth the effort, especially if you accept my postulate that they mostly raid at night.
> Me:
> >I concur that they would prefer hit and
> >run to a degree but would contend that the Longbow is NOT the weapon to
do
> >this with. The tactical use of the longbow by the Rathori would seen to
be a
> >reaction to the heavy armour of their oft mounted foes in the Janube
valley.
>
> Peter:
> >The Rathori Longbow was a gift from the Elves of Erigia after the
> >Rathori graciously allowed them refuge within their woods. This
> >dates it to the First or Second Wane whereas mounted foes have
> >been in the Janube valley since the Dawn Ages.
>
> You just made that up. The Rathori have had elves in that area for a long
> time AND given that form most of the period in between the early wanes and
> the present, they would have been asleep due to the Ban, how would they
have
> become a Longbow culture so quickly? It take many generations of gradual
> growth to do that. The French tried to create a longbow force in the
Hundred
> years war period and failed miserably.
I'd agree here - that if they do have the longbow, it wouldn't be a commonly used weapon. They are too hard to make, too hard to use effectively, and unwieldy for everyday use (which would be the primary test for a hsunchen people). And why would they necessarily have ANY successful means of engaging heavy armor regularly? If the heavy armor shows up, they leave. The targets for Rathori arrows would by and large be peasants, militia, and the occasional patrol - pretty darn unbelieveable that heavy cavalry is so ubiquitous even in Carmania that they would equip every roaming patrol with it.
>
> >The Rathori avoided mounted foes by retreating to the woods and
> >bushwhacking them from there. The wide open spaces are not for
> >them as they are an arboreal people.
>
> But they raid into open spaces! They raid the civilised lands! Often
they
> simply wouldn't have anywhere to retreat too.
>
But open space doesn't mean "billiard table". Historically, it was common in the Roman border provinces that barbarian raids would occur as far into the Empire as men could travel in foot in a day. A raid would happen, and teh raiders would high-tail it back as fast as they could bear the loot. On the very, very rare occasion that a Roman relieving force could happen to get within sight of the raiders en route to the barbarian lands (usually across the danube) the raiders would simply drop everything and run. Always couldn come back later and get what they missed when the Romans left.
> Here is how I think they would resist a cavalry charge.
>
> Firstly those capable would turn partly into bears and the mere smell of a
> bear is enough to frighten all but the hardiest of horses. Secondly by
> forming a strong group and using missile fire at range, skirmishing as
they
> retreat they can cripple horses and keep the less well armoured knights at
> bay. If they do make it to woodland then they can scatter but out in the
> open, they would have to have a means of survivall against mounted foes.
>
> Bear in mind, this doesn't have to be a square or complex formation, a
large
> clump of Rathori would be a forbidding obstacle to a cavalry charge.
>
This is as logical as anything for Rathori that have no choice but to engage. I like the point about the bear-scent, too, although I'd say this is probably endemic to any Rathori, and they probably don't have to do anything as esoteric as partially changing into a bear to stink like one. But I think the incidence of this would be very, very low.
And like the meaning of their name, many of
> them were hunters. Yes, the Rathori would use the bow for hunting, but
why
> would they ignore its potential in combat? Consider a fight they get into
> with a bunch of Janubians. If they escape they return home and tell
everyone
> how they outranged the enemy crossbows and how their rapid shooting took
out
> many horses and men, thining the charge and breaking the attack. So they
> wouldn't learn from this?
But we have to consider the Rathori are HSUNCHEN - not even Barbarian-level of development. It's not like they have a militia, nor armory nor anything that we would say is a formalized military establishment. They are hunters and opportunists. This is the basis for their raiding - it's sometimes easier and less risky to take stuff from the defenseless peasants over there than to try to get it the hard way from nature. They'd by & large use the same equipment for war that they use for hunting - one of the better non-economic explanations for why barbarian forces were lightly armored despite having it repeatedly proven to them that even a moderate level of armor multiplied the long-term effectiveness of soldiers manyfold. They simply didn't care.
>
> > >Secondly the Rathori have bad memories of Carmanian
> > >brutality that precipitated the White Bear wars (and many
> > >veterans of those wars are still alive thanks to the Ban).
>
> >Sure, but given that we know that the Rathori are not one state or mind,
> >There would be many who would not serve the Carmanians, but there would
be
> >those who would. Orlanthi have served the Lunar Empire, even after
brutal
> >conquest. I think that some clans of the Rathori probably have a long
> >history of serving Sweet Sea states as mercenaries.
>
I'd agree with this wholeheartedly - again going back to the point that RW barbarian tribes were more frequently than not at EACH OTHER's throats as frequently or more than they ever attacked civilized lands. Opportunism requires that at least some of the tribes find utility in taking pay from the local governor in exchange for better weapons and some support (cf. Gauls, Huns, Alans, etc).
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