> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:40:01 +1200
> Subject: Rathori versus CharUn
>
> Wesley Quadros:
>
> > > But horses aren't kept in yurts, are they? And if they run away,
> > > then the Rathori can fire into the herd and expect to hit a couple.
>
> >Which will then mean that the Rathori have to somehow carry a dead
> >horse (or take the time to strip it) while being chased across the
> >steppe by many really mad horse-nomads.
>
> What mad horse-nomads? They've chased away the nearest nomads
> and have plenty of time before any reprisals can reach them.
Okay, even assuming that the clan has broken into sub-herds, I cannot see these herds being more than a mile or two apart. A man can run a mile in 10 minutes, a horse can do it a lot faster. The Rathori chase off the nearest nomads (IE drive them out of bow range?) One rider gallops off to each of the other sub-herds and the rest of the sub-clan harries the Rathori with galloping archery attacks. I think that even a small sub-clan should be able to muster a dozen or a score of mounted archers. Knock off 4-6 to ride to the other sub-clans and you still have 6-14 archers charging about on their horses making life misserable for the raiders. Granted, the raiders have bows as well but while they are shooting they are not running and they are not gathering loot. Give it 20 -30 minutes and the entire armed might of the clan can be at the sight of the raid. In 20-30 minutes I bet that a rathori carrying loot and trying to fend off a dozen archers won't cover a mile.
"Look Dear! I got another bear-pelt!".
>
> Unless you assume that CharUn are always on full military alert
> at any one time and instant ready reaction forces.
No, I assume that they are sleeping in their tents with out-riders. When the alarm is raised then they grab their bows and swords and leap on to their horses (don't need saddles) and ride off where they leaders direct them to. Sure, that may take 5 minutes. (If you doubt the time, I can, and have, awoken, showered, shaved, eaten breakfast and been out the door to work in 11 minutes!)
>
>
> > > Perhaps you have forgotten what the eastern Rathori do not have
> > > metal weapons and the CharUn do? The Praxians do raid the
> > > Orlanthi and other people for those necessities.
>
> >But the Orlanthi are not nomads and the Praxians are. The discussion was
> >foot bound technologocially moronic barbarians raiding war-hardened horse
> >nomads.
>
> The horse nomads still have metal weapons which would be well worth
> acquiring.
But it would be much much easier to take those weapons from somebody else rather than a guy on a horse waving said weapon at you. Say the Arrolians maybe.
My point, and I think Steve's as well is not that the Char Un don't have valuables to raid. We are saying that it is too dangerous to raid the nomads and the opportunity cost of the loot is too high. Go south and pick on those fat city dwellers who will run away from their homes and leave you the time to pick through their belongings. Their metal cook pots, their metal chairs, metal spoons, knives combs and other metal things that a Rathori would have no idea what it was - but its really shiny. I do not think that they Char Un have these things. They have metal yes. Swords, arrow heads, armour, buckles, jewellery, knives. I do not see them having anything else. They don't need it and couldn't carry it.
>
>
> > > The CharUn have a higher
> > > technology than the Rathori as can be seen in their clothing
> > > (worked leather and crude hides). Hence CharUn leather goods will
> > > have value in Rathori society.
>
> >Are you serious?!
>
> Yes.
>
> >Even the Inuit and the Lapps know how to work leather - they
> >use stones and their teeth. Are you trying to tell us that the Rathori can't?
>
> No. Read it again. The CharUn clothing is of much better
> quality than the Rathori.
It had better be gold-plated, diamond encrusted, Iron-ribbed leather goods to make a Rathori want to take it from the steppes.
> > > The
> > > Pentans will have similar living arrangements and thus to suggest
> > > the Pentans can toss everything and ride away at all times is just
> > > plain silly.
>
> >Steve did not say "everything", he said "money" and "wealth". What is
> >wealth to a Char Un pure-horse nomad?
>
> What do CharUn perceptions of wealth matter to the Rathori? What
> the Rathori is interested in is something that he can use or
> looks pretty regardless of its value to the CharUn.
>
> >Horses, metal, sons, weapons. I do not see any of
> >these being unable to be tossed on a horse and moved immediately.
>
> But leaving camp in a damn hurry, are you sure that you
> will get _all_ of them? How many times have you gone on
> holiday and found that you had forgotten something?
Yea, I forgot my son! NOT!! Maybe I am not in the correct frame of mind. I cannot see any possibility where a Char Un would _forget_ his horse, metal, son and weapons when he leaves camp. Maybe a metal hair comb he looted for his mate but nothing else and a metal hair comb will not bring raiders into the steppes.
Maybe we have differing POV on what a Char Un sub-clan would have. I think their metal goods are restricted to stuff that they find useful and valuable: weapons, jewellery, buckles, stirrups, bits. All of these are within easy reach if they ever leave the nomad's person. Except, yes, the saddle with the buckles and the bit.
Nomads are like anybody else, they want to live a comfortable life. For them that means lots of horses, lots of women and good food (or course their idea of good food would make an Orlanthi churl retch).
>
> > > You have obviously forgotten that these mustangs were descended from
> > > Spanish horses that had been bred to take a rider for something like
> > > two thousand years. The CharUn horses are not in the same position
> > > as they are bred for things meat food, milk, draft and carriage.
> > > Under such circumstances, you will tend to get a diversification of
> > > specialized types just like you do for _cattle_.
>
> >Are you saying that the Pentans have not been riding their horses for 2,000
> >years?
>
> No. I'm saying that the CharUn use their horses for purposes
> other than riding, considering that they think cattle are
> polluting. I even explicitly made an comparison with _cattle_ to
> aid comprehension.
Well, I worked on a farm as I said. We had holstein, herford and angus cattle (red and black). Besides the amount of milk they put out there was no significant difference in the breeds. They all walked the same speed, they all tasted the same, and they all kicked as hard. And that it today in an industrial society where we have the time and money to breed cattles for specific purposes.
>
>
> > >How are you defining small? If the Arrolians keep the Dara Happan
> > > >standards then from the 120,000 population they could easily have
> > > >5,000 or more soldiers (plus the ragged peasants and city dwellers).
>
> >Peter also asked why a clan would travel together. Isn't that the
> >reason and definition of a clan? The group of people (family?) that
> >you hang out with, travel with, fight with.
>
> No, it is not. The Maori clans (hapu) here historically inhabited
> several forts (pa) and it was a rare impoverished hapu that only
> inhabited one pa. They were grouped together in larger tribes
> (iwi).
>
> For pastoral nomads, the pressure of grazing for their herds requires
> them to be spread out over a distance and so they would split up into
> several sub herds at varying distances from each other. The Pentans
> do have a rank of leader as well as chief and the former will be
> well-equipped to handle the duties of leading the subtribe.
I agree to this but would still point out that the clan can gather its warriors at the sight of a raid before the raiders make it more than a mile.
Also in this discussion we have not even touched on magic. The nomad's camps would be warded by spirits and they would have hunting spirits to help them catch the raiders. The Char Un's spirit allies are spirit horses and hawks so they have rather good surveillance and ground speed when they are seeking something. The Rathori would have bear magics. I am not sure what the bear magics would be like but I assume stuff like "fight long after you are dead", "smell food 30 miles away", "sleep through anything", "really really strong", "move quietly through forest". Nothing that would really help them to escape the Char Un hunt.
If raiding was a problem within a few miles of the Rathori forest then the nomads would stop going there or would keep full awareness while in that region.
All told. I think that it is a bad move for the Rathori to try raiding the steppes. The cost is too high, the return too low and there are easier places to go.
Wesley Quadros
Cruise Director
Celtic Webs Internet Publishing
www.celtic-webs.com
wquadros_at_celtic-webs.com
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