Re: The Glorantha Digest V7 #539

From: Wesley Quadros <wquadros_at_celtic-webs.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:45:42 -0700


Peter M grumbled:

> From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_bigfoot.com>
> Subject: More yurts
>
> Graham Robinson:
>
> >This kind of misses the point I was making. Peter keeps stating that Yurts
> >take hours to pack up
>
> Flatly untrue. I even stated my position by pointing out that
> the Pentans would have two types of tents like the Praxians
> do. Your response: "so what?". But since you believe that Yurts
> can be easily tossed onto the back of a horse amongst other
> silly things, your inability to understand what was written
> is really of no surprise.

Hey Peter, Want to try and keep it a little more civil? This is the second person that you have insulted now. Read on and see how you like being talked to that way....

> Subject: Raiding Rathori against CharUn
>
> Wesley Quadros:
>
> > > What mad horse-nomads? [The Rathori]'ve chased away the nearest nomads
> > > and have plenty of time before any reprisals can reach them.
>
> >Okay, even assuming that the clan has broken into sub-herds, I cannot see
> >these herds being more than a mile or two apart.
>
> Considering that you and Martin were talking about a thousand
> strong clans at the minimum, I do think the horse herds would
> be spread out a lot further than that.

I was talking about the "sub-herds" not the clans. How about "your inability to understand what was written..."

>
> >I think that even a small sub-clan should be able to muster a dozen
> >or a score of mounted archers.
>
> Given that the Rathori have the better bows, this is hardly going
> to make them quake in their bearskins.

Who says they are better? The Turkish (and Mongol) composite bows were nearly as good, if not as good, as the longbow. And there is a hell of a difference between a mounted archer and a foot archer. And, "if you had read further" you would have seen the part where the mounted archers harry the raiders and while the raiders are shooting at the archers they are not running away or gathering loot. Thus allowing more time for the rest of the Clan to arrive and collect some pelts.

>
> > > Unless you assume that CharUn are always on full military alert
> > > at any one time and instant ready reaction forces.
>
> >No, I assume that they are sleeping in their tents with out-riders. When
> >the alarm is raised then they grab their bows and swords and leap on to
> >their horses (don't need saddles) and ride off where they leaders direct
> >them to. Sure, that may take 5 minutes.
>
> Your CharUn do not invoke the spirits before they set out? Does

Let's see, "my cousin is being attacked by raiders and needs my help"....CHARGE!! Besides, the spirits are already integrated or in fetishes. The Shaman needs to invoke spirits, I am a warrior!

>
> the Leader not take time to determine where the Rathori are? What

Sure he does, "Chief, my dad sent me! We are being raided over there!! We saw 5-hands of them."

>
> happens if an outrider fails to return from a patrol? Do you guard the camp on
> the basis that he has been hit by a Rathori? Or do

> you send out a search party to wake him up?

Yes, both.

> > > The horse nomads still have metal weapons which would be well worth
> > > acquiring.
>
> >But it would be much much easier to take those weapons from somebody else
> >rather than a guy on a horse waving said weapon at you. Say the Arrolians
> >maybe.
>
> For the Rathori who live in the east, they really don't have a choice
> about who to raid.

Everybody has a choice. If it is suicidal to go into the steppe then they will go elsewhere.

> >My point, and I think Steve's as well is not that the Char Un don't have
> >valuables to raid.
>
> The CharUn are close buddies to the decadent Lunar Empire yet
> in all of Erigia, there is not one single clack plundered from
> the fall of Boldhome?

Kept in a belt pouch or a sack.

> Do not their women have shiny trinkets
> that might appeal to a Rathori?

To quote you again, "if you had read further" and "your inability to understand what was written...". I did mention trinkets for the women. And I did agree that some may be left around. I also said that a trinket is not valuable enough to risk your life over. It has value to the Rathori yes but it is not worth the lives of a raiding party.

> A bronze knife,

Shealth on belt or as I mentioned, the woman throws it into her purse. I cannot see them having so many knives that they forget to take them. Yes, a son might forget his in the excitment but a midget knife is also not worth a raiding party's lives.

> a red cloak,

On the rider's shoulders.

> a
> skull coffee cup

Not worth a raiding party's lives.

> , a singing lunar doll for the kids

Definately worth spending a score of lives to get. Especially the Jar-Eel in Leather edition.

> . All these
> things have some value in the eyes of the Rathori.
>
> >Their metal cook pots, their metal chairs, metal spoons, knives
> >combs and other metal things that a Rathori would have no idea
> >what it was - but its really shiny. I do not think that they Char
> >Un have these things.
>
> Why not? They are friends with the Empire. Their best menfolk
> are away south fighting for loot. Surely some of these things
> in the Empire end up on the Steppes?

I will retract my comments on metal pots and chairs. Graham made a point that I had forgotten. carts and travois. How ever, the raiders still need to make it back to the forests with their treasures while being hounded by the clan's armed might. I don't think that is going to happen.

>
> >They have metal yes. Swords, arrow heads, armour, buckles, jewellery,
> >knives.
>
> And the CharUn have an inventory of all items of these kind
> so that they can check if anything has been left behind when
> they are forced to leave camp quickly?

Peter, you are so stuck on your position that you are not reading what I am writing and you are not thinking. You have made this point three times and I have responded twice. Here is a third and last response.

Sword: I will forget this right after I forget where I left my right hand. Arrow Heads: They are in the quiver that is attached the strap that is resting over my left shoulder. Spare tips would also be kept there as then I know exactly where they are (At least this is what the native history exhibit at our provincial museam says and what I have read in my native studies). Armour: It is resting on two objects called shoulders. Jewellery: STuck through my ear/eye brow/lip/tongue, wrapped around my wrist, neck, ankle. As I mentioned above, yes some of this may be left behind but the raiders would need to find a chest of it to make it worth raiding horse nomands in their land.
Knives: mentioned above.

>
>
> > > No. Read it again. The CharUn clothing is of much better
> > > quality than the Rathori.
>

I did "read it again". Here it is so that you can read it again:
> > The CharUn have a higher
> > technology than the Rathori as can be seen in their clothing
> > (worked leather and crude hides). Hence CharUn leather goods will
> > have value in Rathori society.

Maybe Canadians read this differently than you do but this sentence says that the Char Un have worked leather and the Rathori do not.

>
> >It had better be gold-plated, diamond encrusted, Iron-ribbed leather
> >goods to make a Rathori want to take it from the steppes.
>
> Why? All it has to be is _better_ than the clothing that the Rathori
> can make themselves to be desirable.

It has to be better enough to risk your life to get it. Is it?

>
>
> > > >Horses, metal, sons, weapons. I do not see any of
> > > >these being unable to be tossed on a horse and moved immediately.
>
> > > But leaving camp in a damn hurry, are you sure that you
> > > will get _all_ of them? How many times have you gone on
> > > holiday and found that you had forgotten something?
>
> >Yea, I forgot my son! NOT!!
>
> "I thought he was with _you_!"

Oh please. If the son is old enough to ride then he is obviously with the father. If he is not then he is rather obviously still with the mother. We are not talking about tourists at Bondi beach here.

>
>
> > Maybe I am not in the correct frame of
> >mind. I cannot see any possibility where a Char Un would _forget_
> >his horse, metal, son and weapons when he leaves camp.
>
> He can account for even the stragglers when he has to move a herd
> quickly? He remembers where he left all his weapons, even the
> arrowheads, and metal goods when he has to pack up within a
> limited period of time?

See above.

>
>
> >Nomads are like anybody else, they want to live a comfortable life.
>
> Which includes plenty of useless good-looking stuff in excess.

Well, you are not going to change your POV and I am not going to change mine. Useless stuff is fine as long as it can be fit onto a horse.

>

>
>
> > > No. I'm saying that the CharUn use their horses for purposes
> > > other than riding, considering that they think cattle are
> > > polluting. I even explicitly made an comparison with _cattle_ to
> > > aid comprehension.
>
> >Well, I worked on a farm as I said. We had holstein, herford and angus
> >cattle (red and black). Besides the amount of milk they put out there
> >was no significant difference in the breeds.
>
> Yet Steve Lieb criticizes me for implying all the CharUn horses are
> less than 99% alike. But you've already admitted one key difference.

"your inability to understand what was written..." The only difference I mentioned was the amount of milk produced. Does this affect how much weight the horse could carry? No. Does it affect the horses' ability to take a rider? No. You were using the example of cattle to show that the Char Un have horses that are meat/dairy/etc horses but would not be suitable for riding. Steve and I were using the cattle example to smash your "silly" arguement.

>
> >And that it today in an industrial society where we have the time and
> >money to breed cattles for specific purposes.
>
> Breeding cattle for speciality is not an industrial trend.

Then why would it be a barbarian trend?!

And you are wrong. Every cattle breeder out there today (who can afford the studding fees) breed for a speciality. By grandfather wants bigger and stronger bulls. They bring in better prize money on the show circuit. In his younger days he wanted wilder and crazy bulls because he rode them at rodeo. The Angus breeders want pure blood so that they can get certifed by the Angus breeders association for the better meet that they claim to provide.

And before you try to turn this to support your argument, Graham has it right:
>riding horse : whichever one is currently fittest.
>blood horse : One I'm not going to ride for a bit.
>Meat horse : One which is too old/injured to keep.

The nomads would breed their horses for stamina and speed. Nothing else matters.

>
>
> >Also in this discussion we have not even touched on magic. The nomad's
> >camps would be warded by spirits and they would have hunting spirits to
> >help them catch the raiders.
>
> And the Rathori have similar spirit allies and elvish magics to
> help them raid. I wouldn't say it cancels out, I just think it
> makes life more interesting for both sides.

Agreed. But the steppes are horse terrain and hawk terrain. Not bear terrain.

Wesley Quadros
Cruise Director
Celtic Webs Internet Publishing

www.celtic-webs.com
wquadros_at_celtic-webs.com

"Voyage Upon the Oceans of the Mind"


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