Dave:
>No we weren't. The basis of all of this was whether the Rathori would
>have "evolved" to the point of massed formations of archers. You said
>that this was inevitable given that the people they raid would have
>developed an impregnable defensive system based on forts, quick response
>heavy cavalry and lookout points on every hilltop.
I also stated that the Arrolians probably haven't developed a solid frontier, but nor do I think they are incapable of military evolution, which other people seem to think. The Rathori are capable of evolving in social ways, so why not military? Just because they are Hsunchen, does not preclude change.
>What I'm saying is that this is not as clearcut as you think. If, as it
>seems likely to me, the Rathori raids are a bunch of hunters off to do a
>quick bit of stealing rather than large-scale invasions as you seem to
>postulate. Then they are small-scale irritations causing property damage
>and loss in the outlying areas but not neccesarily great loss of
>life.
I don't believe their raids are this small, I believe they are larger, clan sized or even confederation sized at times. If they are that small, then your logic, is of course correct. We disagree on the scale.
>Yes, a couple of outlying hamlets might band together and reinforce
>each other and try to come to each others help. That is a far cry from
>fortified villages and quick response heavy cavalry. If the raids are
>more of an irritation on the large scale then they do not require a
>large-scale and unbalanced response.
I do not believe they are an irritation, I believe they are destructive. This is the way I've seen it and would play it, but your Glorantha would vary.
>Thus there seems no real need to invoke such a dramatic change of the
>status quo as to say that the Rathori are suddenly getting together in
>large formations which is contrary to what a hunter-gatherer society would
>normally do.
What it boils down to is this: I would perfer, in my Glorantha, that there are military evolutionary changes to the Rathori, you would not. We've interpreted the same sources differently but that's what G is all about.
>So, essentially, I reject the contention that there is sufficient pressure
>to cause the Rathori to undergo such a significant cultural change just so
>that you can have large regiments of Rathori longbowmen in your WRG-style
>Carmanian army-lists.
LOL! You bitch! :) Nice one. I owe you for that slam now. Besides, I want large regiments of bowmen, so there, and I'll cry if I don't get them! <stamping of feet>
>A few Rathori as scouts or, at a strech, skirmishers, yes.
We'll have to disagree on this one, we simply see it differently, which is fine, your view is valid and cogent from your perspective, mine differs.
> Yes it does. I agree. Saying that, the options one has in fighting the
KoW
> is to either win, or be dead. Given that choice, I think any sane society
> would chose to survive, rather than die, even at a terrible social cost.
Our
> heirarchy of needs places survival first, or at least it does to most
people.
> Some people place other factors first, such as religion etc but that is
not
> the rule.
>Zoria, for example, seems to have found another way. They've not been
>crushed utterly.
They haven't been attacked "yet". Perhaps they simply sleep with all the invaders?
>In a world like Glorantha it is not neccesarily the best course to fight
>fire with fire. The world was not saved from Chaos simply by pounding the
>hell out of it, but by the lightbringer's quest (or a major spell, or
>Yelm's overwhelming purity, etc)
Or when Storm Bull dropped a whopping huge rock on the devil or when Shargash ate Dromakus and smashed the world. Violence is always an option and Force solves all problems.
> I think that they are bear people, it doesn't mean that they are bears. If
> we followed that logic, then their raids would be a couple of guys
wandering
> into Arrolia to root through the garbage and molest a couple of camp sites
> and could be scared away by some pots and pans clashing in the wind on the
> terrace...They are people who use the bear spirits. RW totemic people do
not
> act exaclty like their animal totems, they still think and act like humans
on
> the whole. Humans are a gregarious race and I think that comes first.
Those
> Rathori who were more bear than human would be less social yes, but they
> would be rare and talked of in awed tones.
>The society of the totemic has a significant effect on the human
>society. I'm not saying that they behave completely like bears, but there
>is a significant effect. They hibernated for goodness sake.
I agree with you, this is about the level of effect I see too.
>They will
>certainly be less prone to gather in large groups than, for example, the
>uncolings or the pralori or even the Telmori.
Definately Telmori - pack totem.
>So, yes, their raids are
>more like a few hunters opportunistically looking for easy targets and a
>bit of quick loot rather that large numbers of warriors swooping down on
>fortified settlements to burn and pillage like the vikings.
Hmm, here I disagree, I think that they can come together as larger groups and do so, they are less inclined to do it that others, but not to the point of being _unable_ to do so.
> They have no one else to turn to. They have to defend themselves. There
is
> no govt other than them to do it. I think that most peacful people will
> resort to war if they are presented no alternative. The only alternative
the
> Arrolians have is to fight to stop raids or pay tribute, either way they
are
> at war.
>You have a very different perception of what a rathori raid is like from
>me. Hell, even the Orlanthi don't normally do the type of intense
>continuous and destructive raiding that you believe the Rathori do.
Oh, so the feud with the Orlevings didn't turn each clan into armed camps with constant quests for powerful allies and new weapons and myths to fight each other? It didn't escalate and evolve? Was one side not kicked right off its land?
>Indeed - there are small-scale skirmishes. Any person will guard their
>home and family, and even help their neighbour. I just don't believe that
>the Rathori threat is sufficient for them to have significantly changed
>their social structure from what was said in G:CotHW.
I don't believe its changed it much yet, but will change it over time, increasingly as the HW hot up. I like this kinda change, you don't. Okay, fair enough.
>Ok, I'll spell out my thesis very simply. I don't believe that the
>Rathori raid en masse and lay waste to large swathes of the
>country-side. There are small raids - a few hunters looking for some easy
>loot.
Right, good. Now I know why you and I (and perhaps others) are disagreeing. You see it differently and want different things out of it.
>These are not a sufficient threat and economic drain that they
>require a disproportionate response in the form of forts, a standing heavy
>cavalry quick-response force and fundamental changes to the society.
I think there is or at least will be more of this pressure over time.
>This also means that there is not the huge pressure on the Rathori to
escalate
>their raiding style by forming uncaracteristic mass formations and
>forces.
Likewise I disagree. I don't think we disagree with each others logic of what could happen, I concur that with a low level of raiding the Arrolians would not develop strong countermeasures, but equally it seems you agree that they _would_ if they were being heavily raided. So our logic is close, we just disagree on the initial point of the ferocity of the raids. Does that sound about right?
> Yes, neighbours will help each other and there might be the occasional
>small skirmish. Raids would generally be a small number of rathori
>sneaking up on a unsuspecting house or hamlet and either grabbing what
>they could before being chased away or scaring the inhabitants and
>grabbing things and then getting away before the inhabitants return with
>their neighbours.
>So, now do you see where we're comming from?
Yep. if this were the case in my Glorantha, then I would play it as you do. Thanks for clarifying the debate nicely!
Martin Laurie
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #544
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