Alex:
>Concisely put. All we know from Martin at this point is that the
>Tales stuff is 'wrong', because the RE is 'singular'.
What do I preceisely disagree with? The RE cult in Tales #16 and the succession system in the Moonson LARP.
>Martin hasn't really addressed the counter-points I've been making (indeed,
>mostly this thread has been about what a shit Martin is to be making
'changes',
>and/or what a great guy he is to be having this 'debate' at all,
Not what I was after, but there you go.
>as opposed to any substantiative issues, frankly), that this in itself
>tells us almost nothing, and certainly nothing useful.
True, but it has helped me think, which really was the point of debate, even heated debate.
>So once again I ask, in what sense is the RE 'singular',
When the Red Emperor was created the Genesis was of a single being. The ritual was coordinated and empowered by the Goddess, using heroquesting magics and the ritual power of the Egi and their supporters. The body chosen was that of her warlord, Doskalos. The important point to note is that the Goddess created takenegi (as he was not Emp then) to be her tanist. She created him but used others as part of the ritual so that her tanist could go on after her apotheosis, which she new would happen after her final victory at Castle Blue.
His role as tanist was effectively that of her proxy on earth. He was the physical part her rule, he took the flak for her. The creation ritual was a _birthing_ ritual and in it he received part of her power and the spiritual connection to the Egi. However, his creation did create something new. Singular. An _new_ entity, not just a gestalt. Until sheng, this entity reappeared in a the same form after death. This was a result of the Egi being decimated and the rituals and participants being changed to bring the Emperor back. It was also the result of the Emperors need to have a new form to rule his Empire that was beyond the DH form of Takenegi.
The Masks came about as the Emperor became more Lunar and the Empire became more Lunar. The Takenegi form of the Emperor was much more of a DH ruler than the later forms. The changes in the Empire, the increase in Lunar citizens created a change in the Emperor. He evolved if you will. Increasingly his Masks became representations of his peoples subconcious soul. As the gravity of worship in the Empire changed, so did he. He responded to his Mothers needs, even sometimes against his will. I think that the Argenteus form is one part of this process as she progresses towards Rashorana in her mythic cycle.
>how exactly does this contradict the Tales material,
The LARP shows Moonson as being a noble who became Emperor after completing the rituals. Though I agree with MOB and Nick that this is fun and playable from the players perspective, I think it is less theologically correct than a singular Emperor. So while their work is excellent if one follows their argument and approach, I disagree with the core theological concept of the Emperors form.
This is the point at which I stick. Part of me yearns for the MGF approach but at the same time I don't want to betray the Lunar core of the Emperors history and myth for practical purposes alone. That is too easy. I'd rather lose some potential game fun than compromise this.
>and what funky _practical_, _observable_ consequences ensue from same?
The practical difference for me with the singular Emperor view is that the Emperor is not a noble with a past. This contradicts the LARP, though I don't think it contradicts the Tales #16 write up.
The practical effects of this are for most people:
Succession problems seem less "interesting" as the succession will be less ambiguous thus losing fun possibilities.
Here I disagree somewhat. I think that the Emperor comes back and is singular but I don't believe that he is in control of the process. I think there is room for plenty of succession problems but I don't think they need be like the LARP view, even if it is MGF. There are plenty of things I'd think are MGF but aren't in Glorantha.
Besides, we know the history of the past Emperors and we know that future history will see the Emperor gone for good, so for _practical_ purposes it doesn't matter one whit if he isn't singular becaue noone will become the Red Emperor in the future anyway.
>And if we're going to indulge in philosophy, can we at least be
viewpoint->specific? For example, surely the Dara Happan take on such
matters would focus >on re-assembling his six (seven) Parts, a la Yelm,
rather than an ipso
>facto 'singularity' as such...
The DHs see the Emperor as the Righteous Ruler accepted by Antirius. The crux issue here is the Red Emperors singular status. This is independant of his DH Emperorship. I am talking about the core being who was born Takenegi and became Emperor _later_. He became Shah later and all his other titles _later_ but was first and remains Takenegi.
>Personally I think that continuity of, or come to that the existence and
>nature of, individual consciousness is such a 'deep' topic that trying
>to give 'God's telephone number' answers to it is a highly dubious
>approach.
For you maybe, but I feel happier when I write if the deep background works and is cogent. I've found that the ambiguity of the Emperor has really slowed my writing down as I can't picture the holistic view in my mind. This may not bother some folk but it bothers me. Hence my expressing it on the list.
Let us take a look at FS for clues as to the Emperors origin after each Mask is recognised and see why I want to clarify this:
4/40 Takenegi was killed by Sheng
4/51 Magnificus beats Sheng at Kitor but after near 11 years of abscence he was doubted to be the Red Emperor, especially as much of his army was Carmanian at first. They said he was the Son of the Moon but not the Red Emperor as "five of his parts were not the same" I think this is a symptom of his recreation with different Egi and rituals and the different Empire he came to rule.
5/43 Artifex appears after Magnificus dies at Nights of Horror. He "reappeared the same year at Amuli (in Darjiin) during an otherwise insignificant local Full Moon rite He went to Raibanth with his supporters and witnesses. Doubt was vast among the DH nobility, who wanted to make their own High Priest into the new Emperor."
Arfifex passed the Ten tests even though he had no major supporters and was obviously disliked by some DHs. For someone who appeared at a ritual in a small city (and had witnesses to the fact) he seems pretty darn tough to be just a local lord making good.
6/5 Voracius. We haven't anything on the moment of his return in FS. Perhaps Greg will finish that bit and give us some more info.
6/12 Venerabilis "returned at a ceremony in Hargoth." Another appearance at a small city.
6/30 Robustus. We haven't anything on the nature of his return.
6/41. Celestinus "appeared abrupty in Ebon city, climbing out of the sacred cave when it was empty, between rites." Ebon city is out in the Imperial sticks on the other side of the Yolp mountains. His appearance seemed to have few initial supporters and we don't really know how long it took for him to reestablish his rule, as he did fight "wild rebels who were conspiring to resurrect Gbaji". Whatever that it.
7/3 Militaris. "The Emperor appeared next as Militaris. Militaris came from the city of Kedevi in Kostaddi and came to the world at a rite of the the Three Brothers late in 7/3". Again, another appearance at a rite. Again a small city out of the way of major players.
7/15 Reclusus. No info on his return
7/28 Ignifer. No info on his return
7/36 Argenteus. No info on his return
So out of the Masks, Artifex, Venerabilis, Celestinus and Militaris all appeared at otherwise obscure rites in small cities and had no large initial followings or rituals. There is no mention of past history, on the contrary, the actual fact of his appearance seems to have been taken by many to be the reason why he was worthy of support in the first place. Nor do we see any serious wars of succession other than the Proxy war which was more about removing their power than an issue of succession.
This is why I believe the Emperor to be singular. There is nothing in FS to say he isn't and a fair bit of evidence to say he is.
Martin Laurie
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