Peters post

From: Svechin_at_cs.com
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 02:58:22 EDT


Me:
>Yes, and the Lunars see all humans having seven soul parts or six
>and one potential. However, you summed up my concerns with the
>phrase "all humans", Greg has explicitly stated that the Emperor
>is a demigod and he has defined demigods as being no-human deities
>within the mortal sphere who can act outside the compromise.

Peter:
>Yet Yelm has six parts, the Goddess has seven parts, Dendara has
>parts and even the Emperor _as_ _I_ _just_ _pointed_ _out_ is
>recognized as having parts! If you're going to deny that
>demigods have parts, then you need a much stronger reed than a
>bland generic comment about Demigods and the compromise.

Not denying they have parts, I was denying the number of parts as necessarily being 7. I think he has more than that and one of them is his singular takenegi part that was created at Castle Blue.

>Yes, I liked [Nephilim] and the concept. I don't know how to apply
>iy to the RE though, or even if it is an apt comparison.

>.Not even to the extent of equating [Great Self] with the
>Nephilim and the body etc. as the simularca. Yes, the fit
>is not perfect (nor even fruitful beyond a rough parallel)
>but it does show that Greg's statement of the Emperors'
>Singularity isn't a procrustean framework that you think
>it is.

It doesn't show anything really, other than providing more subjective material to argue about.

>Perhaps his body was given to him by a willing noble and this
>started a tradition of this kind of thing, but I mentioned
>this before on the digest and the response was that it was
>similar to the Pharoah and was a big yawn. So that's out.

>That's not the many bodies hypothesis that Nick et al. were
>suggesting. You suggested a watered down version of this
>as a compromise and that was rightly dismissed as being
>too similar to the pharaoh.

You are wonderful! "and that was rightly dismissed", by who, MOB? You? A couple of people? Wow! I'm overwhelmed by the righteousness of everyone! This is your opinion Peter and perhaps that of others. I don't see any problem with you having an opinion, other than the fact that I wish you'd had more like the first post on the RE debate you made with all the quotes, as that was excellent scholarship. I do wish you wouldn't "rightly dismiss" my right to an opinion. You're the sort of guy who'd fight for the right to have an opinion, I am too, lets fight for each others right to speak without being dismissed by handwaving.

> >Really? I thought it was Moonson assuming the form of a noble
> >who completed the rituals.

>Looked like the same noble to me, before and after - Julan.

>A mere surface perception.

Er, okay. I guess you were there like me. I saw the same guy all day, then he was Emperor and was STILL shaggin my chick.

> >You should realize that the FS presents a Dara Happan spin on
> >things and is not the whole truth. I believe the Lunars would
> >view things differently.

>The parts on the various masks were written in the lunar period
>and have many places that show DHs in a bad light. I think the
>spin is Lunar.

>If it's written as a continuation of a Dara Happan list
>that also puts Dara Happans in a bad light from time to
>time. Further indications of the Dara Happan spin
>are:
>- - The capital is portrayed as Raibanth all the way through,
> even in Reclusus' time. Which is a big surprise to the
> inhabitants of Glamour.
>- - Description of Sheng Seleris as the Empty Emperor, instead
> of the Emperor's Other, the orthodox Lunar view.
>- - We are told several times of Dara Happan attitudes, whereas
> the Darjiinians, the Rinliddi, the Pelandans, the Carmanians
> are virtually invisible.

Good points and fair enough. In opposition to that, I'd refer you to this:

P 57 of FS. greg sez "These are transinfos of some lunar documents which provide and overview of the Red Emperor and his history. All these events and interpretations are within the accepted True Imperial Doctrine. Though this is theoretically translated from a single Lunar source..."

So this is a Lunar source, not a DH one according to Greg Sez. Of course, Gregs middle sentence is beautifully set for full ambiguity mode interpretations.

>However, this is the only source I have for working on the RE
>that goes into any depth and I am trying to use only what it
>says literally as fact, before I start putting spins on it.

>Comparing it with the Lunar Wane Chronicle shows serious
>amounts of spin.

Greg said to me that the LWC is not objectively true in all particulars  and spin is easy to do, as we have proved on this debate.

> >Since the Emperor has Seven Parts, the two parts that are
> >the same could easily be his Seventh (Rashoranic) Self and
> >his Antirius self.

>Possibly. But it doesn't say which, so that would be speculation.

>No, Martin, it is interpolation. The Antirius self is the
>part that confers Emperorship and so the Emperor would be
>bound to have that. The Rashoranic part is the TakenEgi
>portion and he wouldn't be the Red Emperor if he didn't
>have that.

Actually thinking over your point here, he has 6 Yelmic parts and 7 DH parts.  They are different parts. Antirius is not in the Lunar parts and Gerra is not in the DH parts, so how many soul parts does he have IYO?

>Constantine didn't "appear" in York, he was _in_ York and decided
>to seize the purple.

>Constantine's example is however an excellent rebuttal to your
>claim that Artifex by appearing in a two-bit Darjiinian town
>would be a "local lord" if the many bodies hypothesis was true.

Fair enough.

>There is a big difference in my mind between "appearing"
>somewhere and being there to begin with.

>And for a Dara Happan writing how the Masks are really all
>the same,

It was written by Lunar theologians, but that _is_ just an interpretation of Greg sez because it could very well have been written by DHs. In truth, we don't know. At least we know that GRoY was written by one man.

>he would be obliged to point out that the Red
>Emperor "appears" there, wouldn't he?

Has it ever occured to you that he "might"  have appeared there and that there is no spin on it at all, that it was simply a factual report, or is this impossible?

>The literal interpretation is that he wasn't there before,
>then he was.

>That's nice, but I do recall that I happen to be pointing
>out that the document is really the Dara Happan
- -interpretation.

And again, I have to point out that that is YOUR OPINION as I have provided info that could be taken another way without much difficulty. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I simply find the data too thin to give a totally unarguable answer. Don't you?

,> >And Lyndon Johnson took his oath on office aboard an airplane
> >flying from Dallas to Washington. The exact place in the
> >sky where he took his oath is otherwise insignificant even
> >to this day.

>I don't see your point here. The Emperor appeared in Ebon city,
>which is out of the way.

>And Celestinus could have been travelling from point A
>to point B when he heard the news in the vicinity of Ebon
>City.

But it said that he appeared in a cave between rites. To me that is a pretty definitive statement, but I admit I am taking it literally. I can see that it is possible that your view might be right. Is it not therefore possible that the statement is literal?

>This in itself is odd for an Emperor supposedly created by using
>the body of a noble, supported by a noble faction.

>Yes, it is odd. But it is only one example in nine, it could
>have been due to unusual circumstances and does not refute that
>the Emperor can be created through the LARP method.

But it doesn't PROVE it either! I have been told that I am wrong because there is a correct version out there I am somehow ignoring. I am trying to point out that the evidence and info can be taken many different ways. We simply don't have enough facts.

>I asked Greg - "Have you any ideas for a mechanic for players
>becoming the Mask of the Emperor" and Greg said - :"Read FS and
>see if you can find any direct references to the Emperor having
>a life before he appeared." I did, and have found none that are
>direct.

>Which merely means that Greg intends it to be ambiguous or
>veiled in secrecy, which the ToTRM#16 writeup also did do.
>It's not as if everybody in the Empire knows the exact
>rituals of how a new Mask is determined.

True

> >Would the Darjiinians believe that
> >the Masks have a previous history, considering they deny
> >that they are all the same?

>I don't know, there are really no sources on this other than that
>paragraph you quoted.

>Well, you are the Expert, so why don't you ask Greg and find out?

I have done so. We'll see an answer when he can write one I guess.

>And try and avoid the bilocation neologism as it is plainly not
>what the Darjiinians are talking about.

How do you know this from one paragraph? I admire your certainty, but I can't agree with it. Everything seems too ambiguous to be so iron clad right as you seem to be saying you are.

>Magnificus came back leading Carmanians, he was also claiming to
>be Emperor to a bunch of DHs who had been under Sheng and seen
>no signs of the RE for years.

>Nevertheless they _checked_ and found that "five of his parts
>were not the same", i.e. they had a pretty good idea of who
>the Red Emperor should be.

Yep, he should be the guy who passed the tests. Given that Takengi had passed the tests and the same dude came back in the first two returns and was plainly the same man who passed the tests with Yelmgatha, they were probably understandably confused at his different appearance. The said, yes you're son of the moon, but the test show you aren;t Emperor, even though the last Takenegi was. So Magnificus solved the problem by taking the tests again.

>They were competing for power in
>their own right. It says they acknowledged him as Son of the Moon
>but not Red Emperor. He was claiming to be Emperor before he was
>tested and this they refuted.

>I like it when Martin insists on literal interpretations
>to rule out interpretations that he doesn't like yet freely
>indulges in spin interpretation to shore up his

Never said I wasn't a hypocrite. Course I am, it is human to be so. I apologise for giving a spin to back up an argument.

>I think that give that almost all the highest members of the Empire
>died at NoH, there was bound to be confusion and a loss of knowledge.

>And how do you reconcile this with "It would seem [the Red Emperor]
>is relatively easy to recognise, yes."?

Because, there was noone left to recongise him. Most of the nobility and high priests bit it at NoH which was a disaster as great as the Dragonkill for Peloria. I think this would have had a huge effect on the Empire.

Martin Laurie


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