I will add my disappointed voice to the many. I was rather hoping
that Martin would respond to Nicks summary with 'no, not what I meant at
all'. Martin seems to be promoting a view that
a) sidelines what we do know of the Succession (the role of the Egi, etc)
b) fails to explain most of the major questions surrounding the succession
at all, like why does the Emperors personality change, what exactly do
those who assassinate him hope to get out of it, etc
c) manages to make a boring routine out of the most important event in the
society of some of the most interesting people in Glorantha.
d) seems to be largely based on a completely literal reading of a very
obvious piece of propaganda.
e) seems to find most of what we do know of Lunar metaphysics to be an
irrelevency to be thrown away where it doesn't agree with said propoganda.
>Nick, I've stated a few times that the reason why I've opened and been in
>this debate is to actually help me build a supported POV.
Well, start by taking up a position that someone else supports, then, Martin. You have achieved as close to a united front as I have ever seen on the Digest. Me, Peter, Nick, MOB, Alex, Joerg even. Its an astonishing achievement.
(FWIW, I think the Red Emperor does on occasion plan his own death, though not as often as Lunar sources would suggest. This is an interesting wrinkle into the matter - the RE on occasion not only plans his successor, but also what his own future self is going to be like)
James
>Something I'm not sure I completely understand about the RE in the
>ongoing debate: exactly how voluntary is the process of the Red Emperor
>incarnating in a mortal body (accepting the RMM position, here)? Is he
>"choosing," or is the choice made "for" him?
I think in a strict sense, its in the hands of the Egi. Whatever the process is, it happens when he is dead. Which isn't to say that the RE couldn't try and arrange it all himself in advance, if he has some forewarning of his demise.
>If I'm a Devious Lunar Noble, I'm reading this to mean (RMM model) that
>it's possible for me to find some diseased,
>jaded, weedy gadabout; finagle a mandate for him; stage-manage him
>through the tests (which would be tough) and then stuff the poor RE into
>the frail shell, hoping to create an incredibly weak and dissipate Mask?
Possibly, but I think it would be a particularly risky and dangerous strategy in a process that is already particularly risky and dangerous. The chances that some Lunar hero/ Egi etc would work out what was going on and give you a good kicking is pretty high.
>I may be misunderstanding different positions, but I get the impression
>the "making a weak emperor" is possible under the RMM School, but not in
>a "Singular"
>model.
One of the weaknesses of Martins model - if gives us no explanation at all that I can see for why some Emperors (Voracius, for example) seem to be so much less as rulers than others.
I think being Moonson is different from being the Red Emperor. The Egi do their mysterious thing and create Moonson (the Rite of Rejuvenation). The various positions that make him the Red Emperor are separate. Generally, he would be acknowledged as Moonson, then perform the Ten Tests, then go on to perform a few other tests that show that he is Padishah of Carmania, rightful ruler of Doblian, etc. Most of what Martin refers to as his 'parts' is really the process by which Moonson becomes Red Emperor (generally a formality, but an important one - like a coronation). (actually, I think Martin is somewhat confused on the difference between becoming Moonson, and becoming Red Emperor, which is a process that occurs once Moonson is identified).
I think opposition to Moonson becoming Emperor once Moonson is identified is treason according to the Lunars (though not necessarily from other cultural viewpoints - which is why it happens occasionally). I think expressing opinions on who occupies what role in the Rite of Rejuvenation (ie who might form the body of the Emperor) is not, though it might make you unpopular.
I think that Moonson is full and complete once the Egi have performed the Rite of Rejuvenation, and anyone who says the Egi certified candidate is not Moonson is treasonous (I'm far from convinced that many institutions of the Emperor can tell a real Red Emperor from a false - but I bet the Egi can).
However, performing the Rite of Rejuvenation is often far from straightforward, many people may perform many different roles, and so on. There is, effectively, a succession crisis, though one that is invisible to most of the populace. And who does what role determines some elements of the Emperors personality, his strengths, etc.
Cheers David ------------------------------
End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #614
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