> "Can a prominent noble of the Lunar Empire hope to become (or
> become part of) the Emperor and retain enough of his previous
> identity to have an influence on the Empire's future?"
In the RMM account, yes. (Cf. my posts passim). The noble could hope to receive the Mandate of the Moon, offer up his own body, and become integrated into the next Mask of Moonson. Prominent aspects of his previous identity might survive, as might alliances, interests and abilities. (But there's no guarantees: remember, he is becoming a *part* of Moonson, and the rest of Moonson certainly has its own opinions and agendas).
In Martin Laurie's version, no. Moonson is Singular. (I've deliberately retained this non sequitur from Martin's repeated posts. I do not see why Moonson's agreed Singular nature prevents the situation we are discussing, and nor do many other contributors to this discussion).
> If I understand what Martin says correctly, if Count Julan happen to
> become Red Emperor, he is now Takenegi, not Julan, and his past life
> / personality / etc. does not affect nature of Red Emperor, as
> Teelo Norri/ Red Goddess. Is it correct?
No.
Martin would say it is *not* possible for Count Julan (or anyone else) to become Red Emperor. Only the Red Emperor can ever be the Red Emperor, and nobody else can be a part of him. Because he's Singular.
I, clearly, would say that it *is* possible for a Mask of Moonson to be formed using (say) Count Julan as a template. (If he were a suitable candidate for this role, that is). And I would expect aspects of Julan to be visible in the new Mask (e.g. it's likely such a Moonson would be honourable, upright, not drink to excess, be good friends with the Coders, scorn snobbery, crack down on corruption in the Provinces, etc.).
But the experience of integrating with and (in some ways) *being* Julan certainly *does* affect the Red Emperor. This is why he has Masks: to experience different forms of humanity.
> If I have understood correctly, Greg intent is that the RE
> will not come back next time he will be killed.
Or at least his return will be very badly delayed, such that eventually some leaders of the Empire don't expect him back and resurrect other (incompatible) forms of non-"Lunar" leadership while he's gone.
> There must be something in the reincarnation process
> that will prevent DH or Lunar heroes to replace him.
Could be.
> I think that is the purpose of the "singularity" : the singular
> part get lost somewhere so all attemps to get him back or
> replace him will fail.
Sounds very similar to the spiritual dismemberment of the Pharaoh. Possibly it was even done by the same people? :-)
> Is there anything in RMM products that contradict this?
No.
> Is there anything in RMM products that do not support this?
No.
All IMO, of course.
> Something I'm not sure I completely understand about the RE in the
> ongoing debate: exactly how voluntary is the process of the Red Emperor
> incarnating in a mortal body (accepting the RMM position, here)? Is he
> "choosing," or is the choice made "for" him? (By a suitable body being
> present within ritual circumstances, etc. etc.)
I would say the latter. But the suitability of the body is dependent on some pretty hefty Lunar magical considerations: you can't use just *anyone*! This is what the Mandate of the Moon represented, in our account.
In a sense, the mystical elements are "out of our hands" and beyond mortal ken. We do the best we can (or indeed the worst, see below) and hope to make the next Mask of Moonson more amenable to our desires.
> If I'm a Devious Lunar Noble, I'm reading this to mean (RMM model)
> that it's possible for me to find some diseased, jaded, weedy
> gadabout; finagle a mandate for him; stage-manage him through the
> tests (which would be tough) and then stuff the poor RE into the
> frail shell, hoping to create an incredibly weak and dissipate Mask?
Yep, certainly worth a try. (And Goddess knows there's enough gadabouts descended from previous Masks and likely to be suitable bodies!). But you might be surprised what you get... see my post "Testing the Candidates" in V7 #581 for some of the upsetting things that could happen to scheming devious Lunar Nobles after they "succeed" in a succession crisis.
Remember: the new Mask may appear to be "weak and dissipated", but he is *also* Moonson, Takenegi, Rufus, Imperator, Padishah, King of Kings, Bridge to Heaven, Son of Light, Lord of Glorantha, Singular and Only Red Emperor of His Mother's Glorious Domains, etc. And he *knows* it; and he may well know what you did and why. (Doesn't necessarily mean he'll do anything about it, mind...).
NB: it's also possible that Mask attributes reflect things that went wrong during the Egi's Ritual of Rejuvenation (facetious examples: Venerabilis would have had the body of a twenty-year-old male model, if those new Egi hadn't cocked things up completely. And Great Sister has a lot to answer for, snacking all through Voracius' ritual of reintegration...).
> Can the RE use a *non*-human to comprise his mortal body? I'm
> assuming it hasn't been done and probably isn't possible,
Me too. I think the body has to be human, and masculine. (Though I have nothing against Emperors having occasional effeminate or transvestite episodes, a la Caligula, Nero or Elagabalus).
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Nick
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End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #616
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