> ["Uniqueness?"]
Yep, I'd go along with all of this.
> ["Re: Red Emperor"]
This, too.
> It's Greg's model, not Martin's (which I think Martin has made clear
> from the beginning),
What Martin did not make clear (IMO) until very recently was that it is *not* his own preferred model. This explains a lot. Had we known this, the debate could have become more productive, much faster. Rather than watching Martin flail trying to shoot down arguments he *likes* with ammunition he privately considers "dud", we could have got to work on preserving all the best features of both models: "BOTH/AND" rather than "EITHER/OR". His stance of apparently implacable opposition (with fig-leafs to entice the unwary) seems to have been completely unnecessary.
> [Emperor's disappearance:] I think his work is simply done. He has
> ruled for seven wanes and has no further need of ruling.
Maybe, but in the interests of Conspiracy Theory I won't agree to this. Far more fun to implicate Dave Cake's scheming Lunar Nobility...
> [Interregnum:] According to [Martin], it's treachery to elect
> a new Emperor, yet as soon as the Emperor disappears come
> 1628, they appoint a new one.
I hope Martin/Greg isn't suggesting that a (non-Lunar, non-Moonson) alternative Emperor is installed *immediately* following the disappearance of Argenteus. Given the normal range of return times, I'd have thought it would be a few years down the line before secessionists got this far underway.
NB: I have no reason to believe Martin/Greg does think this happens "as soon as the Emperor disappears"; there may also be magical/heroquesty reasons which allow it to happen *inadvertently* (e.g. as suggested later by Alex in "re: keith asks" V7 #618: the Ritual of the Egi could cock up and "he ends up as an uebermensch with an 'agenda', like Dara Happan Purism, or Pelandan Revivalism, or some other nonsense, different from the existing artful imperial fudge").
> [Remembering previous lives]: Most people do not remember stuff
> from their previous lives. That appears to be an attribute of some
> enlightened people who in Pelorian terms would be considered to
> have a Great Self.
Good point. It's not *normal* memory we're talking about. Can we at least agree that nobody without Takenegi's Seventh Soul (or a damn good shot at hosting it -- including claimants and proxies alike) will have memories from Moonson's previous incarnations, whether these are "awakened" by the Egi or otherwise. And, of course, Takenegi's Seventh Soul is unique and singular.
> [James's questions:] Only within the last couple
> of Masks has there been the general awareness among the
> elite of how a Mask is chosen and so they are making all
> sorts of plans on what to do when Argenteus passes on.
Agreed. And, of course, these include pious and worthy "plans" (to stop anyone else fixing the succession and let the Lunar Way take its course), which may nevertheless do as much as or more than said schemes and plots to bugger things up completely.
I'm reminded of the joke about the Christian standing on the roof of his house during a flood, as the waters are rising. He prays to God to save him. A boat rows past and offers to rescue him: "No, the Lord will provide." The waters rise above his waist; a helicopter flies overhead and lowers a rope ladder. "Leave me here: the Lord will provide." The waters rise over his head, and he drowns. In heaven, he complains vociferously to God: "Why didn't you answer my prayers?" And the Lord replies: "I did send a boat, and a helicopter: what more did you expect?"
That is: apparently mundane actions and motivations (ambition, etc.) may be the means by which the reincarnation of Moonson is *meant* to be accomplished. Trying for a "perfectly pious" reincarnation may be a bigger spanner in the works than anything else. ("OK, everyone stop trying so hard to become Moonson. Let's just wait until he appears -- *bing* -- without all these heroquests buggering him about...")
>> "Can a prominent noble of the Lunar Empire hope to become (or >> become part of) the Emperor and retain enough of his previous >> identity to have an influence on the Empire's future?"
> Leaving aside the obvious comment about whether it is true or not, is
> it BELIEVED to be true, there are a number of possibilities here :
> [1] Can I house the emperor's soul and retain some of my identity?
> [2] Can I do so if I heroquest first?
> [3] Can I stop the emperor's soul from reincarnating and trick everyone
> into thinking I am housing the emperor's soul?
> To all of which, IMO, the answer is "maybe, but we don't think anyone
> ever has."
*Whose* answer?
LUNAR ANSWERS To all of the above, the man on the Glamour omnibus would answer "Surely not?!?"
[2] is redundant: whatever you do will necessarily involve heroquesting at some stage (if you're doing it at all sensibly).
[1] would be a fairly widespread belief among the upper ranks of the nobility, though not necessarily something that *anybody* would talk about openly -- after all, you can never be sure who's listening.
[3] is the stuff of Evil. Allegations that your political enemies are trying to do this would be more common IMO than actual attempts. But people trying [3] (or related trickery) should IMO be one of the causes of the Red Emperor's failure to return in the early Hero Wars period.
IN NICK'S OPINION [1] - Usually (emphasising "some"); [2] - Always (i.e. heroquesting *must* be involved, not that you can always do so if you heroquest); [3] - Possibly, but I don't think anyone has ever succeeded in this.
> My stab at the _best_ of both worlds: Julan doesn't 'become' the
> RE, he sacrifices himself as one of the Egi so that the new Mask
> can emerge.
This is how things worked out in the final act of "Life of Moonson". Each team was told to sacrifice one of its members to Chaos, Destruction and the Howling Void, in order to bring back the Emperor. The directors' preferred solution (which nobody was briefed about, of course) was for this team member to be the claimant himself, which would put him in pole position to win the game.
>> Martin seems hopelessly confused, or maybe just hopelessly confu- >> sing, between the Red Emperor (the political status of Lunar ruler of >> the Empire) and the Red Emperor (the personage who occupies this role)
> To defend Martin at least subliminally, it seems harsh to accuse of
> 'confusing' two things which are, in fact, the same.
Is it conceivable that Moonson could fail to become Emperor? If, say, there were an enthroned Dara Happan Emperor, who had passed the ancient Ten Tests and ruled in might and justice according to Yelm's Laws? IMO, perhaps. (He would, of course, still be Moonson; the DH chap would not be Red Emperor; but Moonson sans Ten Tests and DH imperial status ain't what you or I would call the Red Emperor, no?).
I would suggest we use "Moonson" to refer to the personage, and "Red Emperor" to refer to the political status, if the debate goes much further.
IMO, only Moonson can be a genuine Red Emperor. But being Moonson does not mean that you *are* Red Emperor, only that you are the only person who could possibly ever *be* the Red Emperor. IYSWIM.
> I can't think why he'd _want_ to 'become himself', _without_ completing
> becoming Emperor, but it would at least appear not to be completely
> impossible.
(1) It's not necessarily what he wants. What if he *can* become himself but *can't* become Emperor?
(2) There may be precedents, under Sheng: Takenegi's return after thirteen years' absence scuppered someone else's attempt to pass the Ten Tests, but it is not clear whether Takenegi had already completed them himself (FS p.63). IMO he could not have done so without alerting the nomads to his return; he may have completed them after the success of his fishy ambush. In which case there was a time in 4/19 when Takenegi acted without being Emperor.
Likewise, did Magnificus complete the Ten Tests before or after the battle of Kitor? The Dara Happans recognised him as Shah (etc.) but not Emperor, following which he invoked the powers of the Ten Tests to prove his legitimacy and identity.
> [Re: keith asks]
I agree with the whole of this post.
> War as an extension of politics by other means, but you seem a little
> keen to concenrate on the 'other means', and skip over the politics...
I note in passing that when I was discussing the nature of imperial politics with Martin off-list half a year ago, he mentioned that "naturally lots of violence is a must." I probed: did he mean "conflict" not "violence"? Alas, no: "Nope, I mean VIOLENCE."
IMO political intrigue and urban skullduggery don't require oodles of violence. HW should give us plenty of other ways to get excitable.
:::: Email: <mailto:Nick_Brooke_at_btinternet.com>
Nick
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End of The Glorantha Digest V7 #620
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