Nick:
>Maybe, but in the interests of Conspiracy Theory I won't agree to this. Far
>more fun to implicate Dave Cake's scheming Lunar Nobility...
I think it might be something as simple as Peters point. My little RE story is the X-files version.
Peter
> [Interregnum:] According to [Martin], it's treachery to elect
> a new Emperor, yet as soon as the Emperor disappears come
> 1628, they appoint a new one.
Nick
>I hope Martin/Greg isn't suggesting that a (non-Lunar, non-Moonson)
>alternative Emperor is installed *immediately* following the disappearance
>of Argenteus.
Yes, Argenteus goes around tea time, the new Emperor shows up at the end of town in a rain storm wearing a poncho. Er, or was that a Fist Full of Dollars?
>Given the normal range of return times, I'd have thought it
>would be a few years down the line before secessionists got this far
>underway.
Correctamundo. Basically after a couple of seasons people start to get nervous, then they start to quest to find him. Then they talk to his Mom and the Egi and are told - make your own. Rather like dying Alexander to his Generals - who should rule? "The strongest" and then things get dangerous.
So we will have a Diodochi situation on our hands (rubs them with glee), get ready for some really big fights. Wahoo!
>tNB: I have no reason to believe Martin/Greg does think this happens "as soon
>as the Emperor disappears"; there may also be magical/heroquesty reasons
>which allow it to happen *inadvertently* (e.g. as suggested later by Alex in
>"re: keith asks" V7 #618: the Ritual of the Egi could cock up and "he ends
>up as an uebermensch with an 'agenda', like Dara Happan Purism, or Pelandan
>Revivalism, or some other nonsense, different from the existing artful
>imperial fudge").
In the HW timeline so far, it is 10 years before a powerful Emperor establishes himself on the unified throne. In 1638 he kicks Argraths butt and wages war across Peloria, even into Charg.
>Good point. It's not *normal* memory we're talking about. Can we at least
>agree that nobody without Takenegi's Seventh Soul (or a damn good shot at
>hosting it -- including claimants and proxies alike) will have memories from
>Moonson's previous incarnations, whether these are "awakened" by the Egi or
>otherwise. And, of course, Takenegi's Seventh Soul is unique and singular.
Agreed!
> To defend Martin at least subliminally, it seems harsh to accuse of
> 'confusing' two things which are, in fact, the same.
>Is it conceivable that Moonson could fail to become Emperor? If, say, there
>were an enthroned Dara Happan Emperor, who had passed the ancient Ten Tests
>and ruled in might and justice according to Yelm's Laws? IMO, perhaps. (He
>would, of course, still be Moonson; the DH chap would not be Red Emperor;
>but Moonson sans Ten Tests and DH imperial status ain't what you or I would
>call the Red Emperor, no?).
Agreed!
>I would suggest we use "Moonson" to refer to the personage, and "Red
>Emperor" to refer to the political status, if the debate goes much further.
Totally agreed. Very important destinction.
>IMO, only Moonson can be a genuine Red Emperor. But being Moonson does not
>mean that you *are* Red Emperor, only that you are the only person who could
>possibly ever *be* the Red Emperor. IYSWIM.
Bloody hell, will you stop saying things I agree with? I'm getting nervous!
>(2) There may be precedents, under Sheng: Takenegi's return after thirteen
>years' absence scuppered someone else's attempt to pass the Ten Tests, but
>it is not clear whether Takenegi had already completed them himself (FS
>p.63). IMO he could not have done so without alerting the nomads to his
>return; he may have completed them after the success of his fishy ambush. In
>which case there was a time in 4/19 when Takenegi acted without being
>Emperor.
Yes. He was not Emperor at that point. That was something I'd long considered important in determining what was the RE and what was Takenegi. There have been a fair few occasions when he was one and not the other, but as you rightly point out, noone can be RE unless they are Takenegi. RE is his name due to the Crimson Glow his souls make once he takes on the mantle of divine Yelmic rule.
>Likewise, did Magnificus complete the Ten Tests before or after the battle
>of Kitor?
IMO, not until he'd freed Raibanth which was some time after, it may even have been a couple of years.
>The Dara Happans recognised him as Shah (etc.) but not Emperor,
>following which he invoked the powers of the Ten Tests to prove his
>legitimacy and identity.
Exactly. There was doubt because he seemed different, though they said he was Moonson, readily enough
Alex:
> War as an extension of politics by other means, but you seem a little
> keen to concenrate on the 'other means', and skip over the politics...
Nick:
>I note in passing that when I was discussing the nature of imperial politics
>with Martin off-list half a year ago, he mentioned that "naturally lots of
>violence is a must." I probed: did he mean "conflict" not "violence"? Alas,
>no: "Nope, I mean VIOLENCE."
And bearing that in mind you seem suprised that the singular model or your intrigue model isn't how my Glorantha works?
Well violence is a must and conflict and politics are part of the continuum of human endeavour with the state. I just happen to like the VIOLENCE bits the most.
>IMO political intrigue and urban skullduggery don't require oodles of
>violence.
Don't require it, but are much more appealing with it IMO.
>HW should give us plenty of other ways to get excitable.
Agreed. Each to their own.
Martin Laurie
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