This thread really does not belong anywhere else ...
Xavier & Peter :
> >while I'm at it, there was a point that caused me a lot of trouble
> >during the translation. The word "Sorcerous". Is it a gloranthan word?
>
> IMO it's a God Learner terminology and the original word is
> probably "Zzaburi". Greg's had major difficulty in the past
> hunting for a suitable term. Rationalist, Materialist and
> Philosophical all have problems while some of the words he's
> come up with (Liturgical) are better buried.
It is *probably* God Learner terminology.
But IMO it is also a translation of an actual Gloranthan word (probably 'zzaburi' or 'zzaburite' or 'zzaburous(?)', yes, but 'malkioni' or 'malkionite' are also possible) that *does* describe BOTH monotheist magic & miracle working AND atheistic sorcery.
More below.
> >Do western people call themselves "sorcerous"?
>
> No. They consider themselves Malkioni first and foremost.
I believe that there is no such distinction in the Genertelan West.
> >Are they aware of being part of a "sorcerous" society?
Yes. IMO.
> They would most readily apply that to the Brithini or the
> God Forgotten as those societies are dominated by Sorcerers.
The westerners believe that most societies (including pagan ones) are dominated by 'sorcerers' (in foreign lands : by quite primitive and/or delusional ones) IMO, including their own societies.
> The learned would be aware that the God Learners classified
> their magics as sorcerous but that is probably held to be
> a God Learner Error.
IMO, the learned are aware that they themselves use 'sorcery'.
They believe, in fact, that *all* magic is (or partakes of, or comes from) 'sorcery'.
> >But since there is a clear distinction between the religious and
> >the sorcerous orders, is it not logical to consider that the words
> >"sorcerer" or "sorcery" are not officially considered by the malkioni
> >as describing their way of life.
>
> I agree.
I do not. Given that the malkioni believe that all magic comes from the Sorcery Plane, I do not agree that any distinction between 'magicians' and 'sorcerors' actually exists in the Malkioni cultures, and especially not in Brithini culture (and language) ...
'sorceror' is in fact a theist/animist term to describe a certain class of (evil) materialist magician. IMO.
> >I really think there is something awkward in this and I'm not sure I phrase
> >my question very well. it's just that "sorcerous" society sounds splitted
> >in two : the "monotheists" malkioni and the "sorcerous" zzaburites.
>
> It is.
I disagree. The split is into a far greater number of societies than two ...
As you pointed out later, Peter, the Brithini are a kind of Malkioni.
The Sorcery Plane has been poorly explained in HW:RiG ...
> The difference is in the answer that they give to the following
> question: Do you believe that God ultimately has human attributes?
>
> The monotheists (Rokari, Hrestoli) say yes, the sorcerous (Brithini)
> say no.
>
> God with human attributes is Malkion.
>
> God with no human attributes is the Creator.
That is certainly what orthodox malkioni monotheists believe. That is, they (the orthodox poorly educated malkioni) are probably told that the Brithini have a God with no human attributes.
However, a Brithini's answer to the question 'Do you believe that God ultimately has human attributes?' would actually be 'God does not exist'
A Brithini might expound further, to state that 'God' is simply a false anthropomorphisation* of the Sorcery Plane.
> However Greg, being the type of person he is, screws it up here
> and there.
Mainly when he attempts to write it up ... :-(
Jeff :
> > No. They consider themselves Malkioni first and foremost.
>
> Except the Zzaburites... =)
I believe that the 'Malkioni' can be loosely defined as those who believe that the source of Magic resides in the Sorcery Plane, according to the Ancient Laws of Malkion & Zzabur.
Whatever the actual Nature of the Sorcery Plane might be ...
> Malkion was the first prophet OR was Creator Manifest...
OR he was the Brithini Sorceror Supreme, who disobeyed his own Laws, failed, and was destroyed during the Chaos Age (or whatever the Malkioni call it) ...
OR he was an 'exceptional man'
OR (...) ;-)
cheers,
Julian Lord
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