Again, I apologise for the tone of my last response to you.
> Therefore the Malkioni would not describe the pagan magician
> as being sorcerers for they use non-sorcerous methods (namely
> sacrifice and worship).
See below ...
> > > Mainstream Malkioni are not dominated by sorcerers but by
> > > Wizards.
>
> >IMO, Malkioni Wizards use 'sorcery'. They are in fact 'sorcerors',
> >and they dominate Malkioni society.
>
> But the issue was what would the _Malkioni_ themselves say?
> That was what Xavier asked about on the Hero Wars list as
> it was a problem he had when translating "sorcerous" for
> the french edition.
I know ; which is why I said 'sorcery' in brackets : for three reasons.
> > > No. Sorcery is only one of the magics avaliable to the
> > > Malkioni. Most Malkioni use the veneration of Saints
> > > and get blessings - a practice condemned by the Brithini
> > > as an error. There may or may not be a third type: logic.
>
> >I'm sorry, but you are wrong ; unfortunately, I cannot prove it.
>
> Look at the Glorantha introduction pages 49-50
Well, on p. 53 it says that the Malkioni 'recognize the existence of spirits and divinities', but that 'these entities are apparitions caused by a defective understanding of the Cosmos' and that 'use of proper wisdom reveals that the Invisible God is the True Source' etc...
This is of course written from a God Learner perspective (and therefore a deist one), but it implies to me that the Malkioni (whether atheist or deist) believe that other forms of magic are actually debased or misapplied forms of 'sorcery' ie 'magics from the Sorcery Plane'.
Sorry to throw words from your book back at you : consider it constructive feedback ... ? :-)
> where the
> different types of Western Magic is described: Veneration
> (which uses worship), Philosophy (using Logic - although
> note the above caveat) and Sorcery (which uses the Will).
> That is the Malkioni statement of how they perceive their
> magics.
A God Learner statement surely ... ?
While the 17th century Malkioni specifically believe that the GLs were wrong ...
> > > The Brithini do believe that God exists. I commend to you
> > > the Brithini creation myth in ToTRM#13.
>
> >Perhaps I've been doing too much listening to Greg ...
>
> >His more recent descriptions of the Malkioni (notably at the last
> >Convulsion, and at the GTA party at Tentacles this year) do not fully
> >agree with the text in TotRM 13.
>
> If he's saying that the Brithini are Atheist, then Atheism
> (as has been stated numerous times before - we ought to
> set it to music) also means one who does not _worship_ God.
Well on p. 50 of Glorantha it says that 'a large number of people are atheists, not believing in a god or God, but in impersonal forces that can be exploited by sorcerors. These are mostly remnant Brithini ... '
So TotRM 13 is incorrect, and the Brithini don't believe in God ?
> All that was meant as God with no human characteristics is
> something akin to Spinoza's statement of God being the sum
> of the physical laws of the universe, or what Stephen Hawking
> means when he talks about God.
Well, that's very close to what I said myself about Brithini beliefs, with the minor matter of a difference in perspective.
This is too excruciating an argument to be worth bothering about IMO ...
> But nevertheless the division of Zzaburi and Malkioni exist,
> is mentioned in the Glorantha Introduction and the Rules and
> I was explaining to Xavier how the Malkioni would understand
> this division.
But I still disagree that malkioni wizards wouldn't think of themselves as a kind of 'sorceror' ; especially not for Xavier's perfectionist translation question.
cheers,
Julian Lord
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